Brumerican Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Is anti semitism anti jew or anti judaism ? Because I am the latter . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Peter, Israel is not occupying Gaza, they have no desire to be there and there are precisely zero Israeli settlements there. The West Bank is illegally occupied, the settlements are illegal and they shouldn't be there, as many Israeli citizens themselves recognise. That is not related to Rev's incorrect statement that building on the land of Israel itself is outlawed by the UN or that doing so threatens the Gaza Strip. The people of Gaza have not been dispossessed of their land (although the West Bank Palestinians certainly have been) and they have the ability to import whatever they chose through Egypt - including large amounts of war material from Iran with which to attack Israeli cities. Just as a point of consideration Israel was not in the West Bank until they were attacked by Jordan and others. They occupied the territory as a result to provide a buffer zone against further invasions. If their neighbours would renounce all violence against Israel then they would have no justification to remain there. They are occupying vast amounts of other land, and have forced these people back into the tiny area that is Gaza: about 25 miles long, as narrow as 4 miles in parts. The area of about the Isle of Wight. 1.6 million people. Very many of these have come from elsewhere, having been driven off their own land - see the map below for some rough idea of the ebb and flow of refugees. They most certainly have been dispossessed of their land - did you think they all originally come from Gaza? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ads Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Have we really just had a "stop throwing anti-semitism around" post, about two removed from another calling them untermenschen? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Have we really just had a "stop throwing anti-semitism around" post, about two removed from another calling them untermenschen? Perhaps the problem is that the Israelis seem to consider themselves ubermenschen? Just thought I'd menschen it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Israel may not want to occupy Gaza, but their behaviour towards it is not confined to self-defence. They are essentially, through control of what Gaza receives in aid, punishing two million people for the actions of a minority. It is a prison, there is no two ways about it. Their strategy of bombing a civilian population in the hope of getting a few bad ones is utterly contemptible, and just because Hamas does the same does not justify it. The situation is simply not as clear cut as 'Israel has a right to self-defence'. To argue it is would be to gloss over the heinous war crimes perpetrated by a supposed democratic country. They have the resources and backing to go after Hamas without killing so many civilians. I, amongst others, doubt they have the desire to go down that road. Speaking out against Israel is not anti-semitic. And for the record, religion certainly doesn't help the situation, and to that all I can say is **** everyone who puts their abstract ideas before people's lives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 They are occupying vast amounts of other land, and have forced these people back into the tiny area that is Gaza: about 25 miles long, as narrow as 4 miles in parts. The area of about the Isle of Wight. 1.6 million people. Very many of these have come from elsewhere, having been driven off their own land - see the map below for some rough idea of the ebb and flow of refugees. They most certainly have been dispossessed of their land - did you think they all originally come from Gaza? Sorry are you talking about 1948 when many Palestinians were encouraged by Arab governments to leave their homes in the wake of Israel being established? Hmmmm. Why did they do that? Was it so they were out of the way when the Arab armies declared war, overran Israel and drove the Jews into the sea the day after Israeli independence? Except it didn't quite work out like that and on the "Day of Catastrophe" David beat Goliath leaving those Palestinian refugees in a very difficult spot. But they didn't all leave (by any stretch of the imagination) and those who stayed became citizens of Israel. They now enjoy political and social freedoms that their Arab brothers in the region could only dream about, including their kin in Gaza labouring under a terrorist theocracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 They have the resources and backing to go after Hamas without killing so many civilians. I, amongst others, doubt they have the desire to go down that road. Israel has already struck over 200 Hamas targets in Gaza by air with relatively few civilian casualties. If their intent was simply to kill randomly then Gaza would be wall to wall dead people by now. other than targeted air strikes I don't know how they could "go after" Hamas without a ground invasion, an altogether more bloody proposition for both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Sorry are you talking about 1948 when many Palestinians were encouraged by Arab governments to leave their homes in the wake of Israel being established? Hmmmm. Why did they do that? Was it so they were out of the way when the Arab armies declared war, overran Israel and drove the Jews into the sea the day after Israeli independence? Except it didn't quite work out like that and on the "Day of Catastrophe" David beat Goliath leaving those Palestinian refugees in a very difficult spot. But they didn't all leave (by any stretch of the imagination) and those who stayed became citizens of Israel. They now enjoy political and social freedoms that their Arab brothers in the region could only dream about, including their kin in Gaza labouring under a terrorist theocracy. Perhaps you mean freedoms like this, or this. Or this. You probably know that Israeli law gives greater rights to Jewish people who have never lived there, than to Palestinians whose family owned the land for generations. As for your idea that vast numbers of people left their homes and lands at the behest of Arab governments, actually they were fleeing war. The governments in question were no friends of the Palestinians. Why do you make the point? Do you try to imply that they are all Arab, or all Muslim, so they're all the same? Or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Israel has already struck over 200 Hamas targets in Gaza by air with relatively few civilian casualties. If their intent was simply to kill randomly then Gaza would be wall to wall dead people by now. other than targeted air strikes I don't know how they could "go after" Hamas without a ground invasion, an altogether more bloody proposition for both sides. Obviously the better approach would be negotiations. But when your whole agenda is an illegal land grab, that's not really possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted November 16, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted November 16, 2012 Is anti semitism anti jew or anti judaism ? Because I am the latter . I hope you mean anti Zionist. Me, I'm "anti" all religions, particularly when they take on a fundamentalist stance. But not in the sense of wanting their adherents killed. This is about politics. And economics. And general fuckwittery. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Obviously the better approach would be negotiations. But when your whole agenda is an illegal land grab, that's not really possible. How on earth do you negotiate with people whose avowed intent is to destroy your country while they are indiscriminately throwing rockets at your civilian population? Also you keep mentioning this illegal land grab. If you mean the establishment of the state of Israel then clearly there was nothing illegal about it. They are not trying to "grab" Gaza. If you mean the West Bank then I agree completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 How on earth do you negotiate with people whose avowed intent is to destroy your country while they are indiscriminately throwing rockets at your civilian population? Also you keep mentioning this illegal land grab. If you mean the establishment of the state of Israel then clearly there was nothing illegal about it. They are not trying to "grab" Gaza. If you mean the West Bank then I agree completely. The broad aim of Israeli negotiating tactics has been to stall and delay, while actively encouraging greater encroachment, to change the "facts on the ground". Much has been written about it. It has not been negotiation in good faith. This describes the tactics. And the stuff about how can you negotiate with people who don't want your country to exist is no more than hyperbolic diversion, as you well know. All sorts of sworn enemies negotiate with each other, have done for ever. You seem to see the Palestinians as the aggressors. Poor little Israel, being pushed around by this mighty foe. It's utter nonsense. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCforever1991 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Anti-Religion is my stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 US warships headed to the area to "Evacuate Americans"...The Muslim Brotherhood president of Egypt paid a visit to Gaza to show support...it's pretty obvious that heavy weaponry is being funneled into Gaza from Egypt, and Hamas feels emboldened...Meanwhile Israel is readying more soldiers than the US currently has in Afghanistan...this could get really ugly, especially if Iran smells an opening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 No matter where you stand on the issue, Hamas does have clear language written into it's charter that it intends to destroy Israel, so what can a reasonable person expect Israel to do with a neighbor who wants to totally annihilate them? That said, Israel does itself nor it's global image any favors by pushing on with more and more settlements. I think the first step needs to be a complete halt to further Israeli settlements, and Hamas needs to cede it's political position to a more moderate element within Palestine. Failing that, perhaps Egypt can absorb Gaza into it's own borders, leaving the West Bank and Golan Heights as the only pockets of considerable Palestinian population. The West Bank could be absorbed by Jordan, and Golan by Syria once their conflict has ended. I know, pie in the sky thinking, but as it stands now, everything is a complete clusterf*ck with no end in sight, and probable worsening conditions in the coming days, weeks, and beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 17, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted November 17, 2012 And its worth remembering that the Likud Party has in its charter the assertion that Israel has a right to all the land in the former Palestinian Mandate, right down to the Jordan river, too... Also known as Eretz Yisrael, or Greater Israel. Again, neither side is particularly well off ideologically on that front, and ultimately innocents bear the brunt, Palestinians particularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 KHV and his post is the clearly anti-semitic. He shares the same ideology as Afterdinnerjacket. you mean ahmadinejad. if he did wipe israel off the he would do everyone a favour. the jews have been flooding in by their thousands for over a century into already occupied arab land. their behaviour backed the americans is the reason we have so many terrorist attacks across the world. the british government helped with the mass influx of jews into israel, to be honest that area throughout time has always been a place of conflict and the situation will never be resolved. blowing the whole region off the map is about the only way it will end it. my post was not anti-semetic, no more israel would mean a lot less problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ads Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Those pesky Jews ah? If they're not killing Christ then they're causing young men to fly planes into Skyscrapers, blow tube trains up and train stations. If only there was some sort of final solution to the Jewish problem? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I'm backing the Palestinians on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 17, 2012 Moderator Share Posted November 17, 2012 I'm not aware of an single person in this topic that has blamed "the Jews" for any of this. Blamed the state of Israel, yes most certainly and you'd be hard pressed to come up with a convincing argument that didn't apportion at least some of the blame on Israel. Israel doesn't equate to all Jews by any stretch of any imagination, so all these comments about anti-semites etc really aren't valid, they have no place in this topic as it stands at present. If we do find an anti-semitic comment the moderators will obviously step in an deal with it just like we would for any other comment of a similar nature. If these comments accusing people of being anti-semitic continue when clearly there is no anti-semitism here then action will be taken. If anybody has concern that a post has broken site guidelines use the report feature and the moderators will have a look, do not accuse people of having an opinion they clearly are nowhere near Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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