Mandy Lifeboats Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 6 hours ago, Jareth said: A little girl died today from heat exhaustion, in Gaza. Had she a hospital to attend she may still be alive. Every single death is a tragedy, and there is only one hawkish country responsible. Israel. No. There is blame on all sides. Hamas and Iran also killed her. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 (edited) 8 hours ago, Jareth said: A little girl died today from heat exhaustion, in Gaza. Had she a hospital to attend she may still be alive. Every single death is a tragedy, and there is only one hawkish country responsible. Israel. What I don't get Jareth, is this constant urge to explain everything Palestine does on Israel yet when it comes to the other way there's very little reflection of why Israel is behaving the way it is. As Pro-Palestinians often say 'The world didn't start on October 7th', the same should be applied to this little girl. She's part of a population that have also contributed massively to the issues they find themselves in, be that by electing people who are so obviously corrupt that it's appalling, furthering issues in states like Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon or simply not wanting to change. How many wars did Palestinian organisations start, urge Arab nations to start, or contribute heavily to the start of? Obviously the little girl isn't to blame for any of that, but it's about time Palestinians and their backers start looking at ways to move forward. Just like it is for Israel. The world isn't as black/white as you seem to think it is. Why is it, you think, such little willingness to contribute to betterment for the Palestinian people not just in Israel, but in Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman and Turkey? Why is the UN so terribly ineffective at helping the people of Palestine, rather than just propping up an aid-dependent state with very little to show for in the way of anything, except for Islamic extremism and corruption? Edited April 28 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 1 hour ago, magnkarl said: What I don't get Jareth, is this constant urge to explain everything Palestine does on Israel yet when it comes to the other way there's very little reflection of why Israel is behaving the way it is. As Pro-Palestinians often say 'The world didn't start on October 7th', the same should be applied to this little girl. She's part of a population that have also contributed massively to the issues they find themselves in, be that by electing people who are so obviously corrupt that it's appalling, furthering issues in states like Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon or simply not wanting to change. How many wars did Palestinian organisations start, urge Arab nations to start, or contribute heavily to the start of? Obviously the little girl isn't to blame for any of that, but it's about time Palestinians and their backers start looking at ways to move forward. Just like it is for Israel. The world isn't as black/white as you seem to think it is. Why is it, you think, such little willingness to contribute to betterment for the Palestinian people not just in Israel, but in Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman and Turkey? Why is the UN so terribly ineffective at helping the people of Palestine, rather than just propping up an aid-dependent state with very little to show for in the way of anything, except for Islamic extremism and corruption? I was gutted to hear that you have suffered abuse during the fallout from the Hamas attack - that's not where I am on this. If I point the finger I point it on the crime committed - I believe Israel is responsible for the overwhelming, criminal suffering of the Palestinians - because it is lead by religious, far right supremacists who do not value their lives, at all. Throw in the recent execution of British ex military aid workers - let alone journalists, or human rights campaigners over the years. It is black and white sometimes - it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Jareth said: I was gutted to hear that you have suffered abuse during the fallout from the Hamas attack - that's not where I am on this. If I point the finger I point it on the crime committed - I believe Israel is responsible for the overwhelming, criminal suffering of the Palestinians - because it is lead by religious, far right supremacists who do not value their lives, at all. Throw in the recent execution of British ex military aid workers - let alone journalists, or human rights campaigners over the years. It is black and white sometimes - it really is. Is it? Who started the most recent set of hostilities? Who started it in 1948, in 1967, in 1982, in the first and second intifadas, in the 2008, 2014 and 2024 Gaza wars? This constant whitewash of what Palestinian organisations (Hamas, Black September, PLO, Fatah, PIJ or even worse, Hezbollah and Iran's other proxy groups who are pillaging through Syria and Iraq with large parts Palestinian fighters) have done over the last 80 years is one of the things that keeps this spiral of violence going. Israel is the only nation on earth that is held accountable for winning defensive wars, and then get pressured to release the territories they won when other nations attacked them. Remove Israel completely, and you've still got a Palestinian people that have attacked Jordan, killed 20.000 people in the Lebanese civil war, performed attacks on the Olympics, on Egypt, on the Jordanian king, taken part in much bloodier conflicts than the current Gaza war in Syria on the side of horrible dictators and so on. The Palestinian backers really need to start looking in the mirror and start holding the Palestinians accountable for their actions, just like we as the West need to hold Israel accountable. Neither people are children, yet only one of them are actually encouraged to stop the spiral and it ain't Palestine. Palestine has a whole under-set of supporters in the West who run around the streets calling for Intifada and for the whole territory between the river Jordan and the Med to be free of the Jewish state. Ah, you invaded another country, blew people up, enacted horrible Islamic coups in Lebanon and attempted the same in Jordan - but you can't help it, you're just a people without any sort of accountability because of Israel. Here, have your own UN-organisation, billions and billions of aid to enrich your politicians and make rockets from. We won't say a word about it because Israel. Imagine what the Kurdish diaspora could do with the sort of aid that we're giving Palestine, they've actually got a democracy and are being purged by most of the countries they're in. The infantilisation of the Palestinian people needs to stop. Edited April 28 by magnkarl 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 17 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Is it? Who started the most recent set of hostilities? Who started it in 1948, in 1967, in 1982, in the first and second intifadas, in the 2008, 2014 and 2024 Gaza wars? This constant whitewash of what Palestinian organisations (Hamas, Black September, PLO, Fatah, PIJ or even worse, Hezbollah and Iran's other proxy groups who are pillaging through Syria and Iraq with large parts Palestinian fighters) have done over the last 80 years is one of the things that keeps this spiral of violence going. Israel is the only nation on earth that is held accountable for winning defensive wars, and then get pressured to release the territories they won when other nations attacked them. Remove Israel completely, and you've still got a Palestinian people that have attacked Jordan, killed 20.000 people in the Lebanese civil war, performed attacks on the Olympics, on Egypt, on the Jordanian king, taken part in much bloodier conflicts than the current Gaza war in Syria on the side of horrible dictators and so on. The Palestinian backers really need to start looking in the mirror and start holding the Palestinians accountable for their actions, just like we as the West need to hold Israel accountable. Neither people are children, yet only one of them are actually encouraged to stop the spiral and it ain't Palestine. Palestine has a whole under-set of supporters in the West who run around the streets calling for Intifada and for the whole territory between the river Jordan and the Med to be free of the Jewish state. Ah, you invaded another country, blew people up, enacted horrible Islamic coups in Lebanon and attempted the same in Jordan - but you can't help it, you're just a people without any sort of accountability because of Israel. Here, have your own UN-organisation, billions and billions of aid to enrich your politicians and make rockets from. We won't say a word about it because Israel. Imagine what the Kurdish diaspora could do with the sort of aid that we're giving Palestine, they've actually got a democracy and are being purged by most of the countries they're in. I take everything you say on board. But I'm Irish and I agree with the Irish leaders on the current situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 9 minutes ago, Jareth said: I take everything you say on board. But I'm Irish and I agree with the Irish leaders on the current situation. So what is the 'Irish leaders' take on who started the most recent set of hostilities? You seem to be conflating what the Irish lawyers are doing in regards to the ICJ with placing blame, they've not gone out and made sweeping statements like you about who is to blame for why there's a conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 55 minutes ago, magnkarl said: So what is the 'Irish leaders' take on who started the most recent set of hostilities? You seem to be conflating what the Irish lawyers are doing in regards to the ICJ with placing blame, they've not gone out and made sweeping statements like you about who is to blame for why there's a conflict. Ireland are intervening with the ICJ case, indicating they believe its merits which is to accuse Israel of perpetrating genocidal acts - I don't know if they've made a lengthy case as to the how and the why Israel/Gaza is where it is - but they appear to be strongly advocating for a side - that's where I am - but granted I have put the blame on Israel myself. I do so because they are in charge there, I mean they are right? They've told the US to do one when it comes to the future of Gaza and that indicates that they are in charge. As the power in the region then my view is that they should exercise restraint, absolutely decapitate Hamas, and smack Iran around too, but there is a huge cost to the civilians of Gaza and they are innocent. Famine is not necessary in any of these aims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 28 Moderator Share Posted April 28 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: Ireland are intervening with the ICJ case, indicating they believe its merits which is to accuse Israel of perpetrating genocidal acts - I don't know if they've made a lengthy case as to the how and the why Israel/Gaza is where it is - but they appear to be strongly advocating for a side - that's where I am - but granted I have put the blame on Israel myself. I do so because they are in charge there, I mean they are right? They've told the US to do one when it comes to the future of Gaza and that indicates that they are in charge. As the power in the region then my view is that they should exercise restraint, absolutely decapitate Hamas, and smack Iran around too, but there is a huge cost to the civilians of Gaza and they are innocent. Famine is not necessary in any of these aims. You agree with them but don’t know what they’ve said? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 Just now, bickster said: You agree with them but don’t know what they’ve said? What? Well I could cut and paste what the leaders of Northern Ireland and Ireland have said about the 'current' situation, in fact I had that tee'd up but thought there's no point in googling for others so dismissed it - it also didn't address what magnkarl asked so I attempted to tailor a response to his question - damned if you do, damned if you don't. There's a great article about the history of Ireland and why its people are so inclined on this issue, making them an outlier in white european nations, I won't paste it here because I feel the very action will provoke derision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 13 minutes ago, Jareth said: Ireland are intervening with the ICJ case, indicating they believe its merits which is to accuse Israel of perpetrating genocidal acts - I don't know if they've made a lengthy case as to the how and the why Israel/Gaza is where it is - but they appear to be strongly advocating for a side - that's where I am - but granted I have put the blame on Israel myself. I do so because they are in charge there, I mean they are right? They've told the US to do one when it comes to the future of Gaza and that indicates that they are in charge. As the power in the region then my view is that they should exercise restraint, absolutely decapitate Hamas, and smack Iran around too, but there is a huge cost to the civilians of Gaza and they are innocent. Famine is not necessary in any of these aims. But that was not the point you were making. Ireland is aiding the investigation and potential case, but have said nothing of what you said about who is to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Jareth said: Well I could cut and paste what the leaders of Northern Ireland and Ireland have said about the 'current' situation, in fact I had that tee'd up but thought there's no point in googling for others so dismissed it - it also didn't address what magnkarl asked so I attempted to tailor a response to his question - damned if you do, damned if you don't. There's a great article about the history of Ireland and why its people are so inclined on this issue, making them an outlier in white european nations, I won't paste it here because I feel the very action will provoke derision. Ireland should tell the Palestinians and Israelis to stop the never-ending spiral of violence, rather than trying to put all the blame on one side like you are. I would've thought they'd learned after funding a movement that committed wide-scale terror in a neighbouring nation for 50 years without much to show for. Israel are completely wrong in their response, but the innate ability that many Pro-Palestinian people seem to have to completely dismiss why Israel are reacting after the history they've had with their neighbours is beyond me. For the very same reason no other nation will step up to aid Palestine either, they've caused massive trouble, coups, assassination, terror and whatnot wherever they've gone. The Pro-Palestinian side needs to try to encourage Palestinians to try to lead a different life rather than acting like it's still the middle-ages and emboldening them by going on marches screaming all sorts of hyperbolic messaging. People were out protesting for Palestine on the 8th of October. One day after the government of Gaza had committed the largest terrorist-attack on another nation since 9/11. Just think a bit about it. Edited April 28 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 1 minute ago, magnkarl said: Ireland should tell the Palestinians and Israelis to stop the never-ending spiral of violence, rather than trying to put all the blame on one side like you are. I would've thought they'd learned after funding a movement that committed wide-scale terror in a neighbouring nation for 50 years without much to show for. Israel are completely wrong in their response, but the innate ability that many Pro-Palestinian people seem to have to completely dismiss why Israel are reacting after the history they've had with their neighbours is beyond me. Well I think that is what they're saying - to stop, pronto. I've admitted I blame Israel for the current situation, they are in charge and have all of the power and decision making yet there is famine in Gaza - that's some biblical punishment going on. I probably take it for granted that it is understood that Hamas/Iran are shits of the highest order, the world needs to get rid ASAP, it's the collateral damage to civilians that irks me personally, and it appears intentional - that's why I blame Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 28 Share Posted April 28 (edited) 4 hours ago, Jareth said: Well I think that is what they're saying - to stop, pronto. I've admitted I blame Israel for the current situation, they are in charge and have all of the power and decision making yet there is famine in Gaza - that's some biblical punishment going on. I probably take it for granted that it is understood that Hamas/Iran are shits of the highest order, the world needs to get rid ASAP, it's the collateral damage to civilians that irks me personally, and it appears intentional - that's why I blame Israel. What do you think the UK would do if a country’s government’s armed groups attacked our country, took hostages, raped, murdered over a thousand people and kept saying they’d continue doing it? Blow them a kiss? Judging by what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan not very different to what Israel is doing to someone who simply won’t stop. Edited April 28 by magnkarl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 On 28/04/2024 at 12:00, Jareth said: Well I think that is what they're saying - to stop, pronto. I've admitted I blame Israel for the current situation, they are in charge and have all of the power and decision making yet there is famine in Gaza - that's some biblical punishment going on. I probably take it for granted that it is understood that Hamas/Iran are shits of the highest order, the world needs to get rid ASAP, it's the collateral damage to civilians that irks me personally, and it appears intentional - that's why I blame Israel. It's bizarre to blame Israel when it's so obviously a complex situation where all are to blame. Hamas are hiding amongst the civilian population. Hamas are using humanitarian supplies for their military. Hamas are holding hostages in civilian areas. Hamas could surrender. Hamas could give up the hostages. Hamas could stop smuggling weapons into the area. Hamas wanted a war. They got it. Now they are punishing their own people by prolonging a war that they never stood a chance of winning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 I very much doubt the Irish government think there’s only one country responsible for the current situation in Gaza, even if they are accusing Israel of genocide at the ICJ. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: It's bizarre to blame Israel when it's so obviously a complex situation where all are to blame. Hamas are hiding amongst the civilian population. Hamas are using humanitarian supplies for their military. Hamas are holding hostages in civilian areas. Hamas could surrender. Hamas could give up the hostages. Hamas could stop smuggling weapons into the area. Hamas wanted a war. They got it. Now they are punishing their own people by prolonging a war that they never stood a chance of winning. Agreed. I'd even take it a step further to the point where all these marches for Palestine is extending this, at least when the messaging is as dumb as 'from the riv...' or 'intifada now!'. Hamas and PIJ\Iran feel emboldened that they can continue because no matter what Israel does, it's wrong. They've got people supporting Palestine even if Palestinians instigated the latest conflict, and said people would never in a million years put pressure on the Palestinian entities to change. That would be counter to their opinion that the Palestinians are eternal victims no matter what they do. There's absolutely no attempt to try to improve the lives of the average Palestinian, it's just the new cause to protest. Edited April 29 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 27 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: It's bizarre to blame Israel when it's so obviously a complex situation where all are to blame. Hamas are hiding amongst the civilian population. Hamas are using humanitarian supplies for their military. Hamas are holding hostages in civilian areas. Hamas could surrender. Hamas could give up the hostages. Hamas could stop smuggling weapons into the area. Hamas wanted a war. They got it. Now they are punishing their own people by prolonging a war that they never stood a chance of winning. Israel has a powerful modern army and modern munitions - yet it has somehow annihilated civilians on a breathtaking scale, also targeting and executing British aid workers and many others. These crimes, including intentional famine currently afflicting Gaza, are Israel's fault. Oct 7th = Hamas' fault. I'm blaming whoever is pulling the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Jareth said: Israel has a powerful modern army and modern munitions - yet it has somehow annihilated civilians on a breathtaking scale, also targeting and executing British aid workers and many others. These crimes, including intentional famine currently afflicting Gaza, are Israel's fault. Oct 7th = Hamas' fault. I'm blaming whoever is pulling the trigger. So the Oct 7th terrorism gave Israel no cause to defend themselves? I'm sorry, but your argument just seems not very well put together, especially when you base your argument on the fact that Ireland is so pure after having funded the IRA for god knows how many years and not managed to stop the violence before there was an agreement that put the various animosity aside and tried to look forward. It's naive to think that a terrorist attack that caused over 1000 deaths, wide scale rape and torture, including the taking of hostages would not lead to a reaction. Edited April 29 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 Just now, magnkarl said: So the Oct 7th terrorism gave Israel no cause to defend themselves? I'm sorry, but your argument just seems not very well put together, especially when you base your argument on the fact that Ireland is so pure after having funded the IRA for god knows how many years and not managed to stop the violence before there was an agreement that put the various animosity aside and tried to look forward. Have they defended themselves yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Jareth said: Have they defended themselves yet? In their opinion they haven't until Hamas is dead (which I can understand as Hamas has been actively shooting rockets at Israel and perpetrated wide scale terrorism for years), how they're going about it is wrong and a lot of people are dying due to it. In a wider sense, the death-toll in Palestine is nothing new in warfare, even if that sounds horrible. Had Ireland defended themselves or settled their grievances with England after bombing several pubs in Guildford, Hungerford and other cities in the 70's? Incidentally, the PLO was one of the few organisations that supported IRA back then, which could explain why there's more support for Palestine in Ireland than other places in Europe. Edited April 29 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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