The Video Assistant Referee (VAR)

[Sam-AVFC]

2 minutes ago, LakotaDakota said:

Keep the cameras, Give each manager 1 challenge per half. If they want something checking then use the challenge. If not game runs as usual. Sure you'll stil get a few shit decisions but we are getting them now with or without the cameras anyway.

I’m with you. Was thinking recently this might be the best resolution.

Just look at how dreadful umpire decisions barely (relatively) get talked about in the context of officiating mistakes, most of the discussion is around the captain wasting a challenge on a stupid call earlier so not being able to overturn.

[villa4europe]

keep it

have a video ref watching everything, and I mean everything...when he spots something he messages down to the pitch ref "you might want to take another look at that mate" pitch ref goes and takes another look on the monitor, crowd know if he's been called over the likelihood is a decision change

its what they did in the world cup and it worked, the only thing I would add is a rugby style mic so you can hear ref team talking and saying what they see

then change the handball and offside rules

[Stevo985]

36 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

keep it

have a video ref watching everything, and I mean everything...when he spots something he messages down to the pitch ref "you might want to take another look at that mate" pitch ref goes and takes another look on the monitor, crowd know if he's been called over the likelihood is a decision change

its what they did in the world cup and it worked, the only thing I would add is a rugby style mic so you can hear ref team talking and saying what they see

then change the handball and offside rules

Exactly this.

I fully admit VAR has been a **** disaster in the premier league. But I still think the main reason is the implementation. The Premier League tried to be clever and completely **** it up

[villa4europe]

Yep implementation problems summed up by the survey suggesting they put a time limit on it

Fixing it via something that no other competition succesfully using it does 

[Zatman]

I would say more arrogant than trying to be clever from the PL. PL is famous for its branding and being slick, this has been an absolute massive own goal

[CardiffGreens]

4 hours ago, villa4europe said:

keep it

have a video ref watching everything, and I mean everything...when he spots something he messages down to the pitch ref "you might want to take another look at that mate" pitch ref goes and takes another look on the monitor, crowd know if he's been called over the likelihood is a decision change

its what they did in the world cup and it worked, the only thing I would add is a rugby style mic so you can hear ref team talking and saying what they see

then change the handball and offside rules

This would also have the benefit that even if decisions were over turned; those decisions are still made by the on-field referee - whose word is final.  The current set up is helping undermine that imo.

Though I have minor doubts about the implicit psychology in asking a ref to "have another look at that" (whether the act of being asked to review their own decision results in a ref subconsciously looking for something to overturn, rather than confirm their own decision); it cant be worse than the unseen arbitrator of laws that the PL's implementation have given us*

On the topic of mics, I was under the impression thats been slated for introducion in the next (couple possibly) seasons - though the officails are wired up at the moment, (and have been for a while) its for their ears only

* though naturally I expect the PL to make things worse and leave us pining for the glory that was VAR 2019-20 ...

[Chindie]

It's shit. And will forever be shit.

[villa4europe]

VAR can't fix that dive from son

Contact by the keepers hand on his thigh, not enough to send him tumbling and he was already going down anyway

[jackbauer24]

VAR is a massive mess because there are a number of glaring issues with it and how it's implemented.

1) Wasn't it supposed to be for 'clear and obvious' errors? If so, then replays should only be played at full speed. Frame by frame isn't clear and obvious. This applies to fouls and offsides. Also maybe cap number of times it can be viewed.

2) Where are the rules about 'passages of play' in relation to a goal? It needs to be clarified. Earlier this season we directly conceded a goal from an incorrectly given freekick. Yet we've also been denied goals from perceived infractions several passes before.

3) Should decisions be made that are subjective anyway? VAR will not solve any issues when it's just another side of a multi faceted argument.

4) Why does it take so long and why is the communication so poor?

5) People talk of the ref looking at pitchside monitors but, linked to point 1 and 3, it shouldn't be needed as it's simply 'wrong decision' or close enough.

6) Why are some things checked and others not? Can't remember the teams off top of head but there was a mess of a few penalties that were retaken due to encroachment then ignored keeper off his line.

7) Are we waiting for VAR decisions for fouls and offsides or not? Thinking back to Crystal Palace 'winner'. If so, what's point of linesmen anymore? Play on then rule out or confirm. This half and half is stupid.

And finally, how can VAR work when the basic rules aren't understood?! What is a handball these days? What part of the body is offside?

Hate VAR because it actually exacerbates problems with refereeing rather than solves them.

[Stevo985]

10 hours ago, jackbauer24 said:

VAR is a massive mess because there are a number of glaring issues with it and how it's implemented.

1) Wasn't it supposed to be for 'clear and obvious' errors? If so, then replays should only be played at full speed. Frame by frame isn't clear and obvious. This applies to fouls and offsides. Also maybe cap number of times it can be viewed.

2) Where are the rules about 'passages of play' in relation to a goal? It needs to be clarified. Earlier this season we directly conceded a goal from an incorrectly given freekick. Yet we've also been denied goals from perceived infractions several passes before.

3) Should decisions be made that are subjective anyway? VAR will not solve any issues when it's just another side of a multi faceted argument.

4) Why does it take so long and why is the communication so poor?

5) People talk of the ref looking at pitchside monitors but, linked to point 1 and 3, it shouldn't be needed as it's simply 'wrong decision' or close enough.

6) Why are some things checked and others not? Can't remember the teams off top of head but there was a mess of a few penalties that were retaken due to encroachment then ignored keeper off his line.

7) Are we waiting for VAR decisions for fouls and offsides or not? Thinking back to Crystal Palace 'winner'. If so, what's point of linesmen anymore? Play on then rule out or confirm. This half and half is stupid.

And finally, how can VAR work when the basic rules aren't understood?! What is a handball these days? What part of the body is offside?

Hate VAR because it actually exacerbates problems with refereeing rather than solves them.

1) I think that's a misinterpretation of "clear and obvious", but that in itself is a confusing phrase. A referee might have just totally missed something, so that's an obvious error, but that incident might still need to be looked at closely to decide if it's an offence

2) Agree. It's a wooly area. I don't think this will ever get clarified as I'm not sure it's possible

3) Yes. But they should be made by the on pitch referee if it's not a simple yes or no. The same referee should review his own decision and then you get consistency.

4) No idea. This is a particularly shit part of it. I imagine it's because they're trying to be too precise in things like offsides. For me that should be a couple of replays reviewed by eye. If it's not clear enough to reverse a decision, then the on field decision stands

5) Disagree. See points 1 and 3

6) Completely agree. Inconsistency is part of the problem. But I also think we're not told everything that's looked at. I imagine (and it's a guess) that everything essentially gets looked at but only the things they decide need to be properly reviewed are "checked" in terms of stopping the game

7) Linesmen do more than decide offsides. But they might still be phased out at the top level. I think the next step of technology will be real time offsides, at which point having linesmen as we know it wouldn't be the best solution. It might be multiple refs instead.

8 ) Agree. The rules in some cases are shit. Offside especially. That needs to be looked at and quick. As I said above I think replays could and should be used, but not to the microscopic detail we have now. A ref reviews the replays and if it's not clear enough to be an error using the human eye then the decision stands.

[villaglint]

23 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

 

4) No idea. This is a particularly shit part of it. I imagine it's because they're trying to be too precise in things like offsides. For me that should be a couple of replays reviewed by eye. If it's not clear enough to reverse a decision, then the on field decision stands

 

Agreed. The only thing I really really hate about VAR is the 1mm offsides to be honest. The rest I reckon are kinks to be worked out. 

Offsides takes the game to take a bit more of a fundamentally different approach. I like the approach you've mentioned. Two views from two different angles by eye. No lines, if it isn't obviously incorrect than no reversal of the onfield decision. 

No lines, no trigonometry and we get our game back. That way you remove the howler that the lino somehow missed but this farce with armpits and fractions of a heel being offside can stop. 

[Stevo985]

9 minutes ago, villaglint said:

Agreed. The only thing I really really hate about VAR is the 1mm offsides to be honest. The rest I reckon are kinks to be worked out. 

Offsides takes the game to take a bit more of a fundamentally different approach. I like the approach you've mentioned. Two views from two different angles by eye. No lines, if it isn't obviously incorrect than no reversal of the onfield decision. 

No lines, no trigonometry and we get our game back. That way you remove the howler that the lino somehow missed but this farce with armpits and fractions of a heel being offside can stop. 

Exactly. You rule out the absolute clangers but you don't have this discussion about mm. The benefit of the doubt goes to the on field decision which means the on field officials still have the responsibility of making a decision, with the knowledge that anything they clearly miss will be picked up.

You'd probably still have the problem of the grey area of having to play on a bit longer than usual in case a decision is wrong, but you get that with the way it is now with additional nonsense of debating over mm and frames

[Chindie]

I seem to recall the debate not too long ago being that offside was offside and the degree of accuracy in that decision wasn't the point - there had to be a point at which a line was drawn

[bannedfromHandV]

On 04/02/2020 at 15:26, Sam-AVFC said:

I’m with you. Was thinking recently this might be the best resolution.

Just look at how dreadful umpire decisions barely (relatively) get talked about in the context of officiating mistakes, most of the discussion is around the captain wasting a challenge on a stupid call earlier so not being able to overturn.

Yeah but the difference there is the captain is usually stood yards away from the action.  

Managers are 50 yards away from either penalty area and looking through a crowd of people, it’s not even remotely the same.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

I seem to recall the debate not too long ago being that offside was offside and the degree of accuracy in that decision wasn't the point - there had to be a point at which a line was drawn

It's true, and if it was a 100% accurate system that worked quickly I'd be more than happy for that to be the case.

But it's not. To take 5 minutes to make a decision based on mm when a frame earlier the decision would be different isn't an ideal solution

 

It's not the decisions I'm really against, it's the amount of time it takes because of how granular they're getting.

[sne]

It doesn't work in football, it just doesn't. It can work better than it does in the PL for sure but with the rules as they are in football it doesn't work.

There is no point in having freeze frame pictures and millimeter "accuracy" and molecular level call if the lines they use to judge it from are arbitrary and pulled out of a hat. Just as there is no point with all of it when it comes to handball since the handball rule is so subjective and iffy that even the refs and experts disagree on half of the calls made.

All this technology and it's still all down to the whims of the ref, just like before VAR.

And that's just the major issues, there are tons more. It's a disaster here and it's a disaster in La Liga, and they've had a year more to perfect it.

[Chindie]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

It's true, and if it was a 100% accurate system that worked quickly I'd be more than happy for that to be the case.

But it's not. To take 5 minutes to make a decision based on mm when a frame earlier the decision would be different isn't an ideal solution

 

It's not the decisions I'm really against, it's the amount of time it takes because of how granular they're getting.

In principal that position is fine, but in reality you can't hold the rule to that extent and it wasn't really designed to be held to that extent.

By getting the micrometers and freeze frames out you only end up with the worst of all worlds - stupid arbitrary decisions that take forever to get to and make a mockery of the rule.

[Sam-AVFC]

2 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Yeah but the difference there is the captain is usually stood yards away from the action.  

Managers are 50 yards away from either penalty area and looking through a crowd of people, it’s not even remotely the same.

I was thinking the captain would make the call in football too but considering the captain in cricket is near enough a manager it probably wouldn’t work.

[Five Ken McNaughts]

The fact goalkeepers leaving their line for penalties is now routinely ignored is effectively a rule change half way through the season. I can only imagine a memo went out and, as with so much else in VAR decision making, the trend then swung wildly the other way (it's painful how much office politics there seems to be in VAR world). At the start of the season they were rocking footage back and forth to see if a keeper's heel was in contact with the paint. Fast forward to a few weeks ago and the Sheffield United goalie was in the middle of his six yard box to save from Jesus. I've said it before, but it simply beggars belief how badly VAR is run from top to bottom.

[bannedfromHandV]

Said it before but will say again, VAR could well kill football, at least as we know and love it.

 

It's already messed with the very fabric of the sport, both as a participant and as a viewer.