The Video Assistant Referee (VAR)

[Stevo985]

30 minutes ago, Five Ken McNaughts said:

The fact goalkeepers leaving their line for penalties is now routinely ignored is effectively a rule change half way through the season. I can only imagine a memo went out and, as with so much else in VAR decision making, the trend then swung wildly the other way (it's painful how much office politics there seems to be in VAR world). At the start of the season they were rocking footage back and forth to see if a keeper's heel was in contact with the paint. Fast forward to a few weeks ago and the Sheffield United goalie was in the middle of his six yard box to save from Jesus. I've said it before, but it simply beggars belief how badly VAR is run from top to bottom.

Football has a habit of doing that.

Introducing rules and then not enforcing them.

Either have a rule, and enforce it, or don't have a the rule.

 

The 6 seconds rule for goalkeepers would be a prime example. Why have that rule if it's ignored 99% of the time a keeper gets the ball? If 6 seconds is too short (which it probably is) then make it 10 seconds and actually enforce it.
Now the same with the coming off their line rule.
Just enforce it! If it's not realistic then make it a metre off their line, or a foot, or whatever. Draw a line on the pitch, do whatever.

Football seems constantly afraid of introducing or enforcing new rules because  of upsetting people. Or people say "ohhh but you'd have a yellow card all the time!" 
No you wouldn't. You might get that for 2 or 3 weeks and then everyone would know.

 

I hate it

[sne]

2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Football has a habit of doing that.

Introducing rules and then not enforcing them.

Either have a rule, and enforce it, or don't have a the rule.

 

The 6 seconds rule for goalkeepers would be a prime example. Why have that rule if it's ignored 99% of the time a keeper gets the ball? If 6 seconds is too short (which it probably is) then make it 10 seconds and actually enforce it.
Now the same with the coming off their line rule.
Just enforce it! If it's not realistic then make it a metre off their line, or a foot, or whatever. Draw a line on the pitch, do whatever.

Football seems constantly afraid of introducing or enforcing new rules because  of upsetting people. Or people say "ohhh but you'd have a yellow card all the time!" 
No you wouldn't. You might get that for 2 or 3 weeks and then everyone would know.

 

I hate it

Same here.

Also hate the habit they have of enforcing new rules to the extreme for a couple of games or weeks and then when it creates too much focus they just totally scrap it or stop making the calls the made the day before.

You get a million calls for something in the group stages of a Euro or WC, and then when the knock out stages begin it's totally ignored.

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, sne said:

Same here.

Also hate the habit they have of enforcing new rules to the extreme for a couple of games or weeks and then when it creates too much focus they just totally scrap it or stop making the calls the made the day before.

You get a million calls for something in the group stages of a Euro or WC, and then when the knock out stages begin it's totally ignored.

Yeah exactly.

Other sports have new rules all the time and they just enforce them and a few weeks later it's the norm. I don't know why football is so scared.

Time added on is another one. It's so arbitrary. Just **** do it properly

[Zatman]

56 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Said it before but will say again, VAR could well kill football, at least as we know and love it.

 

It's already messed with the very fabric of the sport, both as a participant and as a viewer.

Has turned me off big time, mainly only watch Villa games. Thats it

[Zatman]

26 minutes ago, sne said:

Same here.

Also hate the habit they have of enforcing new rules to the extreme for a couple of games or weeks and then when it creates too much focus they just totally scrap it or stop making the calls the made the day before.

You get a million calls for something in the group stages of a Euro or WC, and then when the knock out stages begin it's totally ignored.

About 5 years ago brought in penalties for defenders holding in the box. After a month of lots of penalties they scrapped it

[sharkyvilla]

My main issues are that I reckon you should be onside if any part of your body is in line.  That would get rid of a load of the frustration regarding goals being disallowed.  I don't know why the game would rather see goals chalked off rather than scored.  Also let the ref view the monitor more.  He knows why he gave or didn't give a decision and may be more likely to overturn than someone in a truck who might be too afraid of being seen as not backing up the man on the pitch. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by sharkyvilla

[Stevo985]

7 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

My main issues are that I reckon you should be onside if any part of your body is in line.  That would get rid of a load of the frustration regarding goals being disallowed.  

This goes back to the argument Chindie brought up earlier.

In that case you'd still be drawing lines and measuring millimeters. The only difference would be you'd be drawing the line at the trailing foot rather than the leading foot (or armpit)

You'd still be ruling out goals that are fractions offside.

 

Which again I think is ok if you know 100% that it's accurate and it's fast. BUt I don't think the current system is fit for purpose to measure offsides that minutely. 

[Chindie]

You can only do an offside check on the basis of howlers. You need someone reviewing the entire match and when a goal is scored, while the celebrations are going on, if there's an absolutely stark error, give the ref the heads up. If it's marginal, if it's one a human couldn't reasonably see at full speed, the officials call stands.

[blandy]

5 hours ago, Chindie said:

You can only do an offside check on the basis of howlers. You need someone reviewing the entire match and when a goal is scored, while the celebrations are going on, if there's an absolutely stark error, give the ref the heads up. If it's marginal, if it's one a human couldn't reasonably see at full speed, the officials call stands.

Yeah, exactly - make it like cricket and umpire's call. If it's marginal either way - the armpit situation - then leave the on-field decision to stand. "Clear and obvious" errors, not someone dicking about with lines on a TV to determine a centimetre or six one way or the other. The TV can't even tell the absolute instant the ball was passed forward anyway, and people move in that time.

[Genie]

5 hours ago, Chindie said:

You can only do an offside check on the basis of howlers. You need someone reviewing the entire match and when a goal is scored, while the celebrations are going on, if there's an absolutely stark error, give the ref the heads up. If it's marginal, if it's one a human couldn't reasonably see at full speed, the officials call stands.

I agree, but then you’ll get into what is a major error? A yard, 3 yards? They’ll be back drawing lines on the screen again.

I’d drop it from offside completely and deal with the occasional clanger rather than 5 contentious calls every weekend. Keep it for checking handballs/fouls in build up to goals, mistaken identity etc. 

[Chindie]

28 minutes ago, Genie said:

I agree, but then you’ll get into what is a major error? A yard, 3 yards? They’ll be back drawing lines on the screen again.

I’d drop it from offside completely and deal with the occasional clanger rather than 5 contentious calls every weekend. Keep it for checking handballs/fouls in build up to goals, mistaken identity etc. 

You can't make offside an objective thing. The Premier League wants it to be, but it can't. Theoretically there's an absolute call, where the precise moment the ball leaves the boot of the passer to the receiving player can be analysed perfectly in time with the exact line the defence makes and the exact position of the attacker in that moment.. But you can't actually measure it to that degree, and therefore the call is always with a degree of interpretation, and always will. And the rule isn't meant to be seen like that, so you have to make a point to stop. And it's a long time before you get the trigonometry going.

You have to maintain a degree of interpretation. Trying to absolutely define things like this a fools errand, and ultimately the only way to make this work is to go with a spirit of the law interpretation. Otherwise you get this daft situation where you're achieving a result nobody actually wanted.

As such, you have to go with the version where VAR is picking up the truly obvious errors with offside, and maintain a level of error where the officials on the pitch get leeway. You can't simply stop using it for offside because people will forever point to it being used for everything else but not this... So you compromise, for a flawed rule, to get the stuff that really pisses people off, and not the things nobody even worried about, like being a toenail offside.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Chindie

[Genie]

5 minutes ago, Chindie said:

You can't make offside an objective thing. The Premier League wants it to be, but it can't. Theoretically there's an absolute call, where the precise moment the ball leaves the boot of the passer to the receiving player can be analysed perfectly in time with the exact line the defence makes and the exact position of the attacker in that moment.. But you can't actually measure it to that degree, and therefore the call is always with a degree of interpretation, and always will. And the rule isn't meant to be seen like that, so you have to make a point to stop. And it's a long time before you get the trigonometry going.

You have to maintain a degree of interpretation. Trying to absolutely define things like this a fools errand, and ultimately the only way to make this work is to go with a spirit of the law interpretation. Otherwise you get this daft situation where you're achieving a result nobody actually wanted.

As such, you have to go with the version where VAR is picking up the truly obvious errors with offside, and maintain a level of error where the officials on the pitch get leeway. You can't simply stop using it for offside because people will forever point to it being used for everything else but not this... So you compromise, for a flawed rule, to get the stuff that really pisses people off, and the things nobody even worried about, like being a toenail offside.

How are you going to decide whether it’s truly obvious or not? If they are going to go to the trouble of looking at it on the screen and from multiple angles they may aswell draw the lines.

Maybe the could look at it once, in real time, and make a decision. Goal or no goal. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Genie

[Chindie]

Just now, Genie said:

How are you going to decide whether it’s truly obvious or not? If they are going to go to the trouble of looking at it on the screen and from multiple angles they may aswell draw the lines.

It would be at VARs discretion. They watch a replay, with the express understanding that they can only review the decision to the extent a competent assistant would. No freeze frame, no lines, no bizarre magic lines. If, on that review, it's not self evident the assistant has missed something, the pitch decision stands. If the linesman has missed something really obvious, overrule the decision.

Ironically the one area that clear and obvious error can have a degree of meaning, offside, is the one area the Premier League has decided they aren't using that standard to intervene.

[Genie]

I’m just not sure it’ll happen that way, if they are looking at it they will want to be right. They won’t have the technology at their fingertips and go, “it’s probably alright”. If they are only doing it to the level of a competent assistant then there’s no point. They’ll need to go all in, or leave it to the on pitch officials.

[jackbauer24]

7 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Yeah exactly.

Other sports have new rules all the time and they just enforce them and a few weeks later it's the norm. I don't know why football is so scared.

Time added on is another one. It's so arbitrary. Just **** do it properly

Oh god yes. I'd forgotten to mention this in my original tirade on VAR - mm offside/onside isn't anywhere near as irritating than added time.

It should be officially timed (as most American sports are) that the whole crowd can see. No set figure for a goal or a sub, the referees whistle signifies live play and a stoppage. Free kicks would fall under that. Penalties too. Wouldn't be included in throw ins/goal kicks etc as no whistle so some time wasting might still need to be policed.

And when the time hits zero, same rule as basketball, it's live once it's left the players boot until it's either stopped or scores! Like the idea of a last minute 60 yard buzzer beating goal!!!

[Stevo985]

32 minutes ago, jackbauer24 said:

Oh god yes. I'd forgotten to mention this in my original tirade on VAR - mm offside/onside isn't anywhere near as irritating than added time.

It should be officially timed (as most American sports are) that the whole crowd can see. No set figure for a goal or a sub, the referees whistle signifies live play and a stoppage. Free kicks would fall under that. Penalties too. Wouldn't be included in throw ins/goal kicks etc as no whistle so some time wasting might still need to be policed.

And when the time hits zero, same rule as basketball, it's live once it's left the players boot until it's either stopped or scores! Like the idea of a last minute 60 yard buzzer beating goal!!!

I don't mind the set times for certain events, just stick to them.

In football it's usually 1 minute at the end of the first half, 4 minutes at full time. I'd love to see some stats on it, because I'd guess that would be the combo about 80% of the time.

Look at the home leg of the semi. First half we had a goal, an injury and two VAR checks. 1 minute added on.

[Stevo985]

Apparently Premier League clubs have asked for 10cm leeway on offsides. 
 

which I’m guessing, as many of us predicted, will make absolutely no difference. It just means you’ll be drawing the lines and arguing over millimetres in slightly different places

[Keyblade]

What the hell is 10cm even? How do you just that from a tv monitor?

[danceoftheshamen]

Doesn't that just add even more calculations to the process? Thus lengthening it even more? I just think they should give 4 red flags to each manager, two per half, who then have to throw them onto the pitch for VAR to even be looked at. This would stop most of the silly ones.

 

[villa4europe]

3 years of trials 

Used in 36 different leagues, 7 internarional Club tournaments, 9 national tournaments 

And after 6 and a half months of using it differently to all of them and **** it up the PL want to change the offside rule to suit how badly they're using it

Arrogance or stupidity, or both