Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[magnkarl]

17 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

We probably need to take a step back on the national stereotyping. We’re not in a good place for throwing those stones.

I was trying to work out if its their view that trade is more important than stopping an aggressor. Whether they genuinely believe this land grab would be the last. Whether they just feel it’s outside their sphere of interest. Curious as to where they see a satisfactory conclusion and whether they deep down believe the end of this phase will be the end absolutely. It looks fairly clear to me that if Putin gets away with having gained anything, at pretty much any price, he will see that as his victory. The line on the map moved, Russia is bigger, that’s a win in the history books.

If that is allowed to happen, why wouldn’t the Russian leader have another nibble in another 7 years? 

 

Oh I'm not saying that the U.K doesn't have its fair share of bad press in the past, but on this issue I think we've been fairly good. France and Germany are contributing very little apart from the odd condemning speech and then a phone call to Putin just after.

Both these politicians are facing serious backlash over their stances. The Bundestag has already voted to send heavy weapons, it's essentially Scholz and the SPD holding them back.

France doesn't have the same dependency on Russia that Germany does, so it's just weird that Macron is taking this wannabe statesman line. Many French commentators seem to think that it's a way for Macron to not have to focus on the growing problems at home (Boris anyone?).

Bumbling Scholz is the new nickname he's been given in Germany, he's listening far more to BMW, Mercedes, Krups etc than he is to his own voter base where the majority wants much more decisive action on both oil, energy and weapons delivery.

Edited June 1, 2022 by magnkarl

[Zatman]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

For Macron I think it is that he wants to be the leader of the free world, so everything he does has to be different to the US, UK, Norway, Netherlands, Poland, the Baltics+++. It's that vain French attitude that marks almost everything France does.

For Scholtz it's down to money and his party's implications in Russia. German industry has long prospered on cheap Russian gas to become what it is. Former SDP chancellor (same party as Scholtz and Merkel) Gerhard Schröder is seriously implicated when it comes to corruption, being Putin's lapdog and essentially taking huge sums of cash from Russia to further Russian energy politics in Germany. People forgot very quickly that Angela Merkel was also heavily involved in the communist party in the then cleptocratic DDR and worked at several levels inside various party organisations. There's a reason why she managed to steer Germany's policies so heavily towards propping up Russia's economy.

Merkel was CDU and not SPD

[bickster]

Just now, Zatman said:

Merkel was CDU and not SPD

They were in coalition most of the time

[magnkarl]

6 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Merkel was CDU and not SPD

Yes, sorry. My bad.

CDU and SPD are essentially the same thing though, they always (almost) run together, and hold the two top positions in most coalition governments in Germany. The now very vocal opposition to Scholz seem to be hammering the point home fairly well by mentioning what happened when people tried to appease Hitler. Recent poll below.

Edited June 1, 2022 by magnkarl

[sparrow1988]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

For Macron I think it is that he wants to be the leader of the free world, so everything he does has to be different to the US, UK, Norway, Netherlands, Poland, the Baltics+++. It's that vain French attitude that marks almost everything France does.

For Scholtz it's down to money and his party's implications in Russia. German industry has long prospered on cheap Russian gas to become what it is. Former SDP chancellor (same party as Scholtz and Merkel) Gerhard Schröder is seriously implicated when it comes to corruption, being Putin's lapdog and essentially taking huge sums of cash from Russia to further Russian energy politics in Germany. People forgot very quickly that Angela Merkel was also heavily involved in the communist party in the then cleptocratic DDR and worked at several levels inside various party organisations. There's a reason why she managed to steer Germany's policies so heavily towards propping up Russia's economy.

What are you on about? All of what you've just written is nonsense. Merkel was CDU (Christian Democratic Union). Scholz is SPD (same as Schröder). I mean Merkel was literally leader of the opposition during Schröder's period as Chancellor. And as for propping up the Russian economy, she was also pretty conistent in her line on Russia, regularly criticising Germany's overreliance on Russian energy. It was actually the rest of her party/government which said "nah Angela, it's cheap as chips, we're going to carry on as we are, thanks". One criticism could be that she was probably a little soft on Russia preferring to pursue diplomacy with Putin rather than imposing sanctions. And as for her role in the DDR and being heavily involved in the communist party, I mean she ended up in the CDU. That's not exactly the party to join if you're after radical change of policy and are a hard-line communist is it? It's a centre-right party.

Moving on to the SPD and Schröder. The party have already initiated proceedings to remove him from the party (you might say why not just throw him out, but we're talking about German bureaucracy here - nothing moves fast). Also the public prosecution service have started to investigate him in relation to being complicit in crimes against humanity. The hold up of weapon delivery to the Ukraine is just a case of Scholz just not wanting to decide anything. This is not exclusive to the Ukraine situation. It was the same for measures to deal with the pandemic, cost of living crisis, environmental measures, everything. So to dress it up as Germany being controlled by or favouring Russia is just complete and utter nonsense.

[magnkarl]

4 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

What are you on about? All of what you've just written is nonsense. Merkel was CDU (Christian Democratic Union). Scholz is SPD (same as Schröder). I mean Merkel was literally leader of the opposition during Schröder's period as Chancellor. And as for propping up the Russian economy, she was also pretty conistent in her line on Russia, regularly criticising Germany's overreliance on Russian energy. It was actually the rest of her party/government which said "nah Angela, it's cheap as chips, we're going to carry on as we are, thanks". One criticism could be that she was probably a little soft on Russia preferring to pursue diplomacy with Putin rather than imposing sanctions. And as for her role in the DDR and being heavily involved in the communist party, I mean she ended up in the CDU. That's not exactly the party to join if you're after radical change of policy and are a hard-line communist is it? It's a centre-right party.

Moving on to the SPD and Schröder. The party have already initiated proceedings to remove him from the party (you might say why not just throw him out, but we're talking about German bureaucracy here - nothing moves fast). Also the public prosecution service have started to investigate him in relation to being complicit in crimes against humanity. The hold up of weapon delivery to the Ukraine is just a case of Scholz just not wanting to decide anything. This is not exclusive to the Ukraine situation. It was the same for measures to deal with the pandemic, cost of living crisis, environmental measures, everything. So to dress it up as Germany being controlled by or favouring Russia is just complete and utter nonsense.

Ah yes, the good old 'it's the bureaucracy, not our values'-card.

Do you not think Merkel, CDU/SPD could have been a tad more proactive when it comes to both dealing with Russian gas imports, allowing Schröder who was clearly taking cash off books by Russia to be that involved in the gas pipelines and the energy dependency towards Russia? It literally took Schröder saying he doesn't believe that Putin has committed war crimes before things were done, that was after he'd lobbied for both gas pipelines feeding Germany's extreme dependency on Russia using his office connected to the Bundestag for this.

The CDU and SPD have been in many coalitions, Kiesinger and three Merkel terms off the top of my head.

Bureaucracy is a thing in all other countries, Scholz is lagging far behind, there are clearly other reasons for withholding the weapons than just bureaucracy when even the Bundestag has agreed to do it and it's still not being done. Other extremely bureaucratic countries like the Nordics and Netherlands are delivering weapons just fine.

If you don't belive me about Merkel working as a propagandist for the then FDJ, you really should read 'The First Life of Angela M.' by Lachmann and Ruth. Her past is heavily glossed over.

Edited June 1, 2022 by magnkarl

[Awol]

Hard to find words appropriate to go with this, so I’ll stick with hoping the Ukrainians kill as many of the Russians who invaded them as possible.

 

[Panto_Villan]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

Hard to find words appropriate to go with this, so I’ll stick with hoping the Ukrainians kill as many of the Russians who invaded them as possible.

 

The sad thing is I reckon most Russians think all those deaths are justified.

[choffer]

Twitter awash with stories of Putin having pancreatic cancer tonight. Could be just rumours but if you’re going to get the big C, that’s not a good one (for him). 

[Genie]

2 hours ago, choffer said:

Twitter awash with stories of Putin having pancreatic cancer tonight. Could be just rumours but if you’re going to get the big C, that’s not a good one (for him). 

When Kim Jong Un was giving it the biggun there were constant stories he was on deaths door, and then that he was dead. Neither were true. I hope it’s not the same with Putin and he actually is suffering a slow painful death.

[delboy54]

8 hours ago, choffer said:

Twitter awash with stories of Putin having pancreatic cancer tonight. Could be just rumours but if you’re going to get the big C, that’s not a good one (for him). 

If true...........GOOD !

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

8 hours ago, choffer said:

Twitter awash with stories of Putin having pancreatic cancer tonight. Could be just rumours but if you’re going to get the big C, that’s not a good one (for him). 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

8 hours ago, choffer said:

Twitter awash with stories of Putin having pancreatic cancer tonight. Could be just rumours but if you’re going to get the big C, that’s not a good one (for him). 

Part of Putin's brain is child like in nature,  the internet should come up with better rumours.  Putin's pet name for Lavrov in private is "Buttercup" for example.

[magnkarl]

In order to ease pressue, Olaf Scholz has agreed to deliver IRIS-T SLRM and MLRS systems. Now it just remains to be seen if these get held up by "bureaucracy" like much of the other stuff he's promised before. 

In reality Scholz couldn't hold back any more. There's been increasing pressure in the Bundestag about this as they voted through more delivers over a month ago yet very little has happened. Even his own party is starting to make noise.

[magnkarl]

*Insert Top Gun music

[Genie]

13 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

*Insert Top Gun music

Mixed feelings about that one.

[sparrow1988]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

In order to ease pressue, Olaf Scholz has agreed to deliver IRIS-T SLRM and MLRS systems. Now it just remains to be seen if these get held up by "bureaucracy" like much of the other stuff he's promised before. 

In reality Scholz couldn't hold back any more. There's been increasing pressure in the Bundestag about this as they voted through more delivers over a month ago yet very little has happened. Even his own party is starting to make noise.

The reference to bureaucracy was in reference to getting rid of Schröder out of the SPD, not regarding Scholz's inability to make a decision. Schröder will still have rights and unless there is some clause in the party's code of conduct (or whatever governs SPD membership) that he can just be thrown out, then the SPD will be bringing trouble on themselves if they do just throw him out. I said that holding up weapons deliveries was down to Scholz not deciding anything ever, just as he did with preparing for a new wave of Coronavirus last winter, among other things. Scholz's indecision is not confined your imagined secret German-backed Russian plot to bring down Ukraine.

And regarding Scholz not holding back anymore or not making a decision. Just you wait and see. What will most likely happen is the items will be sent but there will be no ammunition, as Germany's army doesn't have any in stock/to spare, as has happened with previous deliveries.

[sidcow]

49 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

*Insert Top Gun music

These are joint manouvers WITH Russia accord to other sources. 

[bickster]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

*Insert Top Gun music

These drills were much earlier in the year, Pre-Ukraine invasion. It states in the article that they happened in February

[blandy]

6 hours ago, magnkarl said:

In order to ease pressue, Olaf Scholz has agreed to deliver IRIS-T SLRM and MLRS systems. Now it just remains to be seen if these get held up by "bureaucracy" like much of the other stuff he's promised before. 

In reality Scholz couldn't hold back any more. There's been increasing pressure in the Bundestag about this as they voted through more delivers over a month ago yet very little has happened. Even his own party is starting to make noise.

You might be correct about the IRIS-T, but the MLRS my suspicion is you’re wrong. MLRS is US, therefore ITAR controlled. We know that Biden has been holding back on providing MLRS to Ukraine, so it is highly unlikely an ITAR license would have been granted by the US for Germany to export their MLRSs to Ukraine until Biden just this last couple of days said the US was now willing to send the kit to Ukraine.

ITAR is a rigorously enforced system of arms control/protectionism whereby the US government rigidly controls any US owned/designed military kit and property and information. That obviously applies to the Lockheed Martin MLRS.