bickster Posted March 10, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, peterw said: Which is why I say to urge caution for those that are just relying on sources such as the one that you mention. It's best to rely on the facts as we know them not to try and look for an answer that may not be there. It may well be true that the Russians are indiscriminately killing. But we do not know that, and it is fair to say that the Ukrainians will highlight the hospital (and of course others, it is by no means a one off in terms of hitting civilian infrastructure/areas), as they don't need context as the Russians are giving that by the initial invasion. You can’t possibly have even looked at the site, assessed what it does, how it works and who contributes before you posted the reply. Its you who isn’t looking at these things, the problem is entirely yours. You appear to be saying we can’t trust independently verified sources because you personally haven’t looked into it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterw Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, bickster said: You can’t possibly have even looked at the site, assessed what it does, how it works and who contributes before you posted the reply. Its you who isn’t looking at these things, the problem is entirely yours. You appear to be saying we can’t trust independently verified sources because you personally haven’t looked into it. eh? Not sure why you are being aggressive. My point which has remained consistent, is that when we see photos we need to show caution. When we see bombs hitting civilian targets such as hospitals, we need to not jump to conclusions relating to the purpose of the act but consider all the variables because we will never get the full story. What is undeniable is that a hospital has been bombed that has never been questioned. What we may not know is why. Russia will say one thing, Ukriane the other. What is still true though, and was highlighted before, is that if Russia hadn't invaded in the first place none of this would be happening now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 22 minutes ago, bickster said: Quite a few of us on here are looking at sources much wider than the BBC / ITV / Ch4. That you aren't is down to you. If you want to look at independent verification of incidents in Ukraine then this tool is useful Russian Ukraine Monitor Map (extract of resource not possible) It is contributed to by independent verifiers such as Bellingcat and the Conflict Intelligence Team among others . It is run by the Center for Information Resilience Really interesting resource. Cheers Bicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 10, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 10, 2022 59 minutes ago, peterw said: " Some expert" who? We were told previously that the op[posite is true. What was the type of missile? Was it laser guided? Did it come from the ground or from the air? Was it fired from sea (I'm (not sure where the hospital was). There are many variables to consider and yes it is an act that would break international humanitarian law if deliberate. But, we really don't know that it was, we can assume, we can guess, but we don't know. OK, lets see how this plays out in The Hague when the war crime trials start and they have actual forensic experts examining the evidence. This whole region has probably hundreds of high def spy cameras trained on it. I'm sure they'll be able to establish what type of munition, where it came from and probably even show the face of the guy who pulled the trigger these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Presumably all the talk about Russia finding a US chemical weapons program in Ukraine is a prelude to chemical weapons being used. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 34 minutes ago, peterw said: But you're comparing Russia in Syria to now as evidence that they are using the same tactics. i'm saying that it is just as likely that we do not know if the Russians are deliberatley targetting civilians because by the same token we must have done the same thing if we just believe photos? And we're the good guys, right? Look, your on a sticky wicket now....This isn't about Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan.....It's about the here and now. Aggression vs Defence. Loads of naughty shit goes on during war as everyone knows however, Russia invaded, decided to start flattening Ukraine and it's citizens. There is only one side to blame as far as starting this act of aggression. The good guy's are the ones defending their land and families. That's all you need to know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Abramovic didn’t sell Chelsea in time, all his assets now frozen although Chelsea have been given a special sporting license to keep going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 32 minutes ago, ml1dch said: About time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 One report says they can’t sell tickets to their games. ST holders can attend but no one else, and no away fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 I think the key to knowing if it is us, or the Russians being fed the truth - is to look at both sides of the story. We get both sides. Russians get 1 side. I respect anyone asking questions, but the information to make an informed opinion is right there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 1 hour ago, magnkarl said: Russia IS bombing children's hospitals - what kind of whataboutery is this? You give a dictatorship invading a sovereign nation the benefit of the doubt, and discredit media from the country being invaded? I think some soul searching is in order. People wonder how dictatorships arise.. We should ask the Russians to examine the chemical weapon their agents released in Salisbury to confirm whether it’s their poison or not. Without such proof, how can we be sure? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, Genie said: One report says they can’t sell tickets to their games. ST holders can attend but no one else, and no away fans. Can't sign players or offer new contracts either. They can pay existing players and staff, pay for travel, catering, stewarding and security. Nothing else. Nearly their entire defence is out of contract in the summer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Can't sign players or offer new contracts either. They can pay existing players and staff, pay for travel, catering, stewarding and security. Nothing else. Nearly their entire defence is out of contract in the summer. Wow, that’s huge for Chelsea. The value will be dropping like a stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 is roman just a low hanging fruit who is now very publicly being sanctioned so that the calls of doing nothing disappear or is he genuinely a word removed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 Just now, villa4europe said: is roman just a low hanging fruit who is now very publicly being sanctioned so that the calls of doing nothing disappear or is he genuinely a word removed? I think he’s close to Putin, so a good person to sanction as a lever to influencing Russian policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 1 hour ago, LondonLax said: I don't think the Russians have precision guided missiles, they are too expensive. The Russian army still use 'dumb bombs'. They have loads and they’re very accurate. They’ve already fired over 650 cruises missiles at Ukraine and I can assure you they are all guided weapons. As with the majority of the Russian Air Force the main stock of PGMs is being preserved, analysts speculate this is in case of war with NATO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 I'd read a few articles mentioning him being one of the key people pushing Putin for the presidency, and he's so well known and influential at the Kremlin he has his own apartment there. He's certainly not a helpless Russian bystander caught in the crossfire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted March 10, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 10, 2022 15 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: Look, your on a sticky wicket now....This isn't about Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan.....It's about the here and now. Aggression vs Defence. Loads of naughty shit goes on during war as everyone knows however, Russia invaded, decided to start flattening Ukraine and it's citizens. There is only one side to blame as far as starting this act of aggression. The good guy's are the ones defending their land and families. That's all you need to know. Spot on. I think most people accept now that war crimes were committed by both sides in WWII - mass rape by Russian soldiery, indiscriminate carpet bombing of residential areas by the USAAF and RAF, and so on. But the same caveat applied - none of it would have happened had Hitler not gone around invading other countries in the first place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, villa4europe said: is roman just a low hanging fruit who is now very publicly being sanctioned so that the calls of doing nothing disappear or is he genuinely a word removed? He introduced Putin to Yeltsin who took him on as his deputy, then his successor as President. Putin treats Abramovich like a son. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 10, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 10, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Genie said: One report says they can’t sell tickets to their games. ST holders can attend but no one else, and no away fans. I'm sure that's bollocks. it just doesn't make sense, if it's anything like an administration they're duty bound to keep generating as much revenue as they can whilst cutting as many costs as they can. Strangling income streams just destroys the asset. I mean what's the point in seizing the asset then destroying it? They're not taking the cash out of their bank accounts and burning it, or letting all the tenants in those swanky London addresses live rent free. It shouldn't be banned from earning money, just that Abramovich can't pocket any of it. Edited March 10, 2022 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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