Steve Bruce

[PieFacE]

The issues I have with Bruce remain the same whether we win, lose or draw. I think he's done a LOT right since joining us. The unity within the squad is a lot better, and we do look better defensively (well, last season at least), to which he does deserve credit for.

My issue will always be the way we approach games and I think we have an under-achieving squad of players, especially offensively. The way we move the ball from the back to front is just horrific and a little painful to watch. Whilst I'm happy we're winning, I just know that a bad run of form is around the corner with the way we play if Bruce manages the squad like he did last season.

However, I was actually quite impressed with the changes made in the game against Wigan. With the way we play, which is largely fighting for the second ball, we need to have a midfield that is at full fitness and willing to press high up. Bruce admitted a few times last season that he didn't utlitse the squad properly, which is something I totally agree with. We looked slow and lethargic in a lot of games and it hindered our ability to win those second balls. Squad rotation is an absolute must this season, especially in the midfield area. I would be very happy to see Thor, Hourihane, Lansbury, Whelan, McGinn all rotated every game we play, with Jedinak coming in for the "big" games, especially away from home.

[AntrimBlack]

34 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Why? That’s the league we’re in. We don’t have a Premier League quality team.

To achieve that record in the second division is obviously going to be easier than achieving it in the top division.

Particularly when we are one of the richer, bigger clubs in that second tier, and while not being Premier League quality, we have better quality players than most of the other teams in the CH.

[AvfcRigo82]

1 hour ago, AntrimBlack said:

That home record, excellent though as it is, must be tempered by the fact that it was achieved in the Championship.

I said this the other day, had Brighthouse Brucie achieved these mini accolades of late whilst playing in the premier league and europe then there would be a shrine outside Villa park for him.

We are in the championship - we should be achieveing these targets and mini milestones regardless.

[bannedfromHandV]

17 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

To achieve that record in the second division is obviously going to be easier than achieving it in the top division.

Particularly when we are one of the richer, bigger clubs in that second tier, and while not being Premier League quality, we have better quality players than most of the other teams in the CH.

It's all relative though surely? 

We are not a PL club, we do not have a PL team, so why would we devalue our results using that criteria?

By that logic, a defeat in the PL is not so bad then, yet I doubt anyone, whilst we were doing so poorly in the PL, consoled themselves on reflection by thinking 'well we've just been beaten 3-0 by Southampton but at least it was in the PL'.

Its flawed logic, in my opinion. 

[AvfcRigo82]

49 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Why? That’s the league we’re in. We don’t have a Premier League quality team.

True, but certain folk of the 'Bruce in' contingency are treating it like he's the new Pep Guardiola for an achievement that you would expect to see regardless due to the size of the club we are and the league we are playing in.

Listen, I want to see him (Bruce) do well - we all do to a degree, I would love to see him get us promoted but some of the plaudits he is being given is way OTT for what he has so far achieved with us - imo.

[Stevo985]

17 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

We are in the championship - we should be achieveing these targets and mini milestones regardless.

Aaaaaaaand there it is

 

Bad = all Bruce's fault

Good = coincidence, or we should be doing that anyway. No big deal.

[Stevo985]

Just now, AvfcRigo82 said:

True, but certain folk of the 'Bruce in' contingency are treating it like he's the new Pep Guardiola 

Are they?

[DaveAV1]

5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Aaaaaaaand there it is

 

Bad = all Bruce's fault

Good = coincidence, or we should be doing that anyway. No big deal.

Delighted you’ve finally seen the light Stevo.....

[allani]

2 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

What would your opinion be if they both came back down this season? 

Well I wouldn't really class Fulham or Wolves as top 10 Premier League clubs so you could argue that both have already reached their Point C.  No approach is guaranteed to be successful obviously - however, I would suggest that both are more likely to stay up than Cardiff.  Partly through the extra money they have invested but largely because their style of football is more suited to the Premier League.  Put it this way though - would I rather Villa get promoted this season and relegated next season but play like Wolves or Fulham have or get promoted this season and relegated next season and play like Cardiff.  The end result is the same - but I'd personally prefer the former option.  However, I still think that we are different to all three of this season's promoted teams in that if we can survive for a season or two then we should be better placed to invest and start trying to earn our way back into being a regular Top 8 club.  I guess the most refreshing part of the whole hypothesis is that 4 weeks ago I thought we would be doing well to avoid being sucked into the relegation battle this season.  Still need reinforcements but we can at least dream for a while!

[AvfcRigo82]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

Aaaaaaaand there it is

 

Bad = all Bruce's fault

Good = coincidence, or we should be doing that anyway. No big deal.

Sorry, did you want me to word it differently from what the reality actually is since you don't deal in 'facts'  

In all seriousness Stevo the 'Good' is not just coincidence but as I have now explained in another post below, just look at the resources combined with the manager with a CV with his credentials.

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by AvfcRigo82

[TRO]

6 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Did you watch the game Saturday, out of interest? The full game, not a highlights package, not a website showing statistics, actually watch the game?

 

I'll try this once more, we are - out of 72 teams, the (joint) highest scorers in 2018, goals win games - we've won a lot of games, we've scored a lot of goals, I, and many others are entertained, that you and a handful of others cannot see past your own high expectations is your problem.

 

 

The paradox here is this....

We do need a " on the ball" No9 who can lead the line with pomp....but and its a big but, because right now we are scoring goals from all over the team.....and that's hard to do.

If we had one player scoring them, we would be afraid he will dry up.....we can't have it both ways....or can we ?....yeah we need to.

Edited August 14, 2018 by TRO

[rodders0223]

15 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

 

Listen, I want to see him (Bruce) do well - we all do to a degree.

Yes, only to a degree though. I don't want him to go mental and win us this league or nuffin.

[AntrimBlack]

30 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

It's all relative though surely? 

We are not a PL club, we do not have a PL team, so why would we devalue our results using that criteria?

By that logic, a defeat in the PL is not so bad then, yet I doubt anyone, whilst we were doing so poorly in the PL, consoled themselves on reflection by thinking 'well we've just been beaten 3-0 by Southampton but at least it was in the PL'.

Its flawed logic, in my opinion. 

Because we are not in the PL. We are in an inferior league, where results should be easier to achieve.

[Keyblade]

3 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Blandy:

a) I'm surprised you would take such an absolute view on it all, but that's your prerogative irrespective of what I think

b) I was not extolling the virtues of SB having done a 'great' job - I agree a 'great' job would have been promotion, my post was in relation to the constant accusation that he's a dinosaur, that we are not entertaining. Our goals for record suggests otherwise.

 

You are really selling people short if you think their main gripe with Steve Bruce is the superficial and subjective "style" of our play.

I'll only speak for myself, but I'm sure many others agree, but I don't care what style of football we play as long as it's a well defined, well drilled and above all effective style. It can be the hoofiest of hoofball, but as long as it works I'll bite my tongue and I'm on board. Cardiff last season is the perfect example. Neil Warnock is the textbook 'dinosaur' manager, but I wouldn't have any issue with him being our manager because he has a plan, and it works...even with substandard players. 

The problem with Bruce is that he doesn't really have any defined game plan. It's haphazard, it's ponderous and it's shaky. It is not a foundation to mount a real promotion challenge. Even with the best players in the league, it's not enough as we found.

People, myself included have been saying all of this since the beginning of last season. "It's only the first X games". "But we scored X amount of goals". Ultimately we were right, and we finished 4th and didn't get promoted. Didn't matter how many we scored or conceded, the most crucial stat is that we're still in the EFL for the 2018/2019 season.

Now we're going to try it again, and in the first 2 games we see the exact same signs as last season, but apparently they don't count because we won those 2 games. How did that quote about insanity go again?

As much fun as this league can be, I want out asap, and evidently so do our owners. Can Steve Bruce deliver? History tells us, likely not. If you're content with rolling the dice again and hoping we scrape by on the third try, more power to you, I won't knock you...but please don't castigate the rest of us for pointing out the glaring issues and/or wanting to try something else.

[TRO]

1 minute ago, AntrimBlack said:

Because we are not in the PL. We are in an inferior league, where results should be easier to achieve.

should is the operative word.....The relegated clubs soon get the initiation to this league.

[AntrimBlack]

13 minutes ago, TRO said:

should is the operative word.....The relegated clubs soon get the initiation to this league.

Are you trying to tell me that CH teams are not inferior to PL teams? Because that is what I am saying, and you seem to be disagreeing.

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

You are really selling people short if you think their main gripe with Steve Bruce is the superficial and subjective "style" of our play.

I'll only speak for myself, but I'm sure many others agree, but I don't care what style of football we play as long as it's a well defined, well drilled and above all effective style. It can be the hoofiest of hoofball, but as long as it works I'll bite my tongue and I'm on board. Cardiff last season is the perfect example. Neil Warnock is the textbook 'dinosaur' manager, but I wouldn't have any issue with him being our manager because he has a plan, and it works...even with substandard players. 

The problem with Bruce is that he doesn't really have any defined game plan. It's haphazard, it's ponderous and it's shaky. It is not a foundation to mount a real promotion challenge. Even with the best players in the league, it's not enough as we found.

People, myself included have been saying all of this since the beginning of last season. "It's only the first X games". "But we scored X amount of goals". Ultimately we were right, and we finished 4th and didn't get promoted. Didn't matter how many we scored or conceded, the most crucial stat is that we're still in the EFL for the 2018/2019 season.

Now we're going to try it again, and in the first 2 games we see the exact same signs as last season, but apparently they don't count because we won those 2 games. How did that quote about insanity go again?

As much fun as this league can be, I want out asap, and evidently so do our owners. Can Steve Bruce deliver? History tells us, likely not. If you're content with rolling the dice again and hoping we scrape by on the third try, more power to you, I won't knock you...but please don't castigate the rest of us for pointing out the glaring issues and/or wanting to try something else.

That's if you're are right of course....I'm not so sure you are.

I don't think the problem is so much style or design or coaching......I think we have players in certain positions who are not contributing to the overall sufficiently enough and its taking the edge off  the good ones .

Its not a pop, its an observation......Adomah and Kodjia functioning to their potential, would change the face of this team at present they are passengers, you can't carry passengers with promotion ambitions.

We need a dominating Centre Half.....you just cannot brush these things under the carpet and it affects other parts of the team.

In my opinion.....If we had 11 players with square pegs in square holes etc......I feel confident the shape and the style and the method would return......We are like a lumpy engine with a duff spark plug, fix that and it runs smoothly.

by all accounts SB is trying to bring players in .....we are a team with the largest gates and among the smallest Squads.....but we need players who can Dominate their position,(not just numbers)like Jack and John Mc

When the team is fixed and its still the same.....I will join the Bruce out campaign.......but I feel sure that's what it is.

The problem is when someone says the players are not good enough, someone else thinks they mean all of them......We have some damn good players, but not in every position.

We have just added one and I will be really surprised if he does not turn out to be an absolute crowd favourite.....but we need a striker like that now.

Edited August 14, 2018 by TRO

[allani]

1 hour ago, bobzy said:

It seems that, given all of this is entirely negative about Bruce, you perhaps don’t sit between the two groups and are very firmly in a “please **** off now Brucey” camp?

I mean, you’ve said he has no plan, cannot pick a side, doesn’t use valid tactics, have questioned whether or not he signs good players (I assume he’s pretty much entirely responsible for those who haven’t worked, though) and plays for a draw rather than winning.

Not the most balanced piece for someone who is on the fence! 

The two groups that were originally defined were related to whether we are a badly run Championship side who should have limited ambitions or a team who should be in the top tier and should expect the best of everything.  In that regard I am definitely in between the two "camps".  We have been run very badly for a long time and we are not entitled to anything - however, we are still a big club capable of attracting good players, a good backroom staff, etc.  McGinn is a great example - up and coming player who chose us over Celtic (I think I read that his family support Celtic but might have made that up).  Based on 1 performance (plus hearsay from Hibs fans) he is exactly the type of player we should have been signing.  We needed reinforcements and some steel 2 years ago - but signings like Elmo, Whelan, etc are pretty underwhelming.  Indeed we seem to have signed several players who don't seem to fit into any designed plan (Hogan, Taylor, Lansbury, even Bree). 

This isn't all Bruce's fault (the bizarre signings certainly started well before he arrived) by any stretch.  However, no-one else picked the team that had 3 of 4 defenders playing out of position.  I'd even say that he was probably exactly what we did need when he arrived (although he wouldn't actually have been on my short-list) and I think he has done a good job of stopping the rot.  So he gets my respect and thanks for that.

But getting back to the original point - Camp 1 seems to be we should accept Bruce because we are mediocre and he is the best we can get, Camp 2 seems to be that we should be able to hire a top, top manager like Newcastle did with Rafa.  So I am between the two camps.  I don't expect us to attract a Top 10 PL manager but by the same token I do expect us to have a coherent plan, tactics and starting formation rather than seemingly just pulling 11 names out a hat and randomly sticking them on the team sheet (which the Wigan formation looked like). 

[holteend1982]

54 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

It's all relative though surely? 

We are not a PL club, we do not have a PL team, so why would we devalue our results using that criteria?

By that logic, a defeat in the PL is not so bad then, yet I doubt anyone, whilst we were doing so poorly in the PL, consoled themselves on reflection by thinking 'well we've just been beaten 3-0 by Southampton but at least it was in the PL'.

Its flawed logic, in my opinion. 

Towards the end of our time this would have been a good result, 6-1 with mane scoring the fastest ever Premier league hat trick against us! People must surely forget how bad things actually were to be complaining about the way we win and talking in a way that we have some sort of right to be a top flight team. 

[AvfcRigo82]

26 minutes ago, TRO said:

should is the operative word.....The relegated clubs soon get the initiation to this league.

Not many relagated teams got to blow the money on players that we did - and we still failed to capitalise on it. That combined with the manager that had all those previous promotions attached to his CV.

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by AvfcRigo82