Steve Bruce

[TheStagMan]

Here we go again. We have won the game, so its fair game to insult and criticise anybody who dares to voice legitimate concerns about the way we are playing.

Yes, we have won the game, and that's great. we are up to fourth and that is also great - Bruce is doing what he needs to do and I am content with that. If it keeps going I will be very happy. 

However Sheffield Wednesday was only a couple of games ago and we looked poor and lost against an organised team. We have since played weak teams who were poor themselves. Ipswich were very poor, and after the second goal they pretty much gave up. We misplaced so many passes our players STILL look like strangers to each other. It was only after the second goal that we managed to keep hold of the ball for more than a few passes, by which time Ipswich weren't really pressing us.

My concern, and the thing I think Bruce is failing at is making this group of players into a consistent team that can take the pressure off themselves by holding onto the ball and passing to each other rather than relying on an ability to defend a lead. This is not a sustainable strategy for an entire season, no matter how well we defend. 

What we should have done by now is build a unit of a team that works well together and can keep hold of the damned ball. we should then be able to have a sensible plan for how to add quality to that same  team to improve us into the premier league to make sure we stay there. At the moment i am concerned that if we go up it will just be another round of buying decent players and hoping it works. Our two best players this season are players that were basically forced on Bruce (to say otherwise is very selective memory) - which doesn't bode well for his ability to keep us up. How many of the lauded 4 promotions have come straight back down or only survived one season?

 

That said, at the moment he is doing what he needs to do. He should be doing better with the players at his disposal, but wins are wins and as long as he keeps providing them then I will be happy for this season. 

As for what I want - I can take a battling or unlucky loss, that's football. What I cannot take is lacklustre football and lucky wins or reliance on individual flashes of brilliance. At the moment we are moving away from the latter, and if we start to see more of the former, consistently over a number of games then Bruce will be moving in the right direction. Until then, I and others have every right to criticise poor performances.  

[TheStagMan]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

I still think self inflicted ,is a selective view.....i prefer to think it was new faces ,settling in.

Albert has played his way in to this form......it wasn't in evidence at the start of the season, but equally i would have had him in.

I still think there is more to come from us and these results will be no harm to confidence.

I would like to see us garner the space to play in like Wolves, and avoid injuries,but i guess their superior individual skill factor provides that......something to aspire to.

but hey ho.....we all have our views.

Are you seriously trying to say that Wolves have individually better players than us?

 

They have not. What they have is a better coaching and management style where the players are well drilled and know what to expect from each other and it shows. Pretty much any of our players would walk into that Wolves team and would do very very well.

 

[Dr_Pangloss]

31 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

Are you seriously trying to say that Wolves have individually better players than us?

 

They have not. What they have is a better coaching and management style where the players are well drilled and know what to expect from each other and it shows. Pretty much any of our players would walk into that Wolves team and would do very very well.

 

They have a cluster of players who are vastly superior to ours, these players include Jota, Neves, Helder Costa and N'Diaye. I think these players would, without question, walk into our team. Then then have some players who are at least as good as the best of what we have, these are the likes of Bonatini, Cavaleiro, Douglas, Saiss and Ruddy. Absolutely not the case that 'any' of our players would walk into our team. None of our players would get in ahead of the first four players I've lists and in terms of the second group I'd say one would be largely indifferent, on current form you'd definitely have Adomah over Cavaleiro but you wouldn't pick any of our forwards over Bonatini. You'd probably have Whelan over Saiss but they'd give you something very similar, Douglas probably would get in at left back if you play him there, Ruddy vs Johnstone much of muchness. Chester and Terry would walk into their team, those are the only two I'd put in there with confidence.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Dr_Pangloss

[Dr_Pangloss]

There's always going to be some concerns around the football and results against the top sides but it's hard to say that Bruce is not delivering right now. Two points from 2nd is certainly what I'd call acceptable at this stage and the key now is to keep this up. For me, at the start of the season, automatic promotion was the goal, anything short of that was not really good enough since the playoffs are an enormous risk and our anemic results and performances against these sides suggest we might struggle. 

One or two smart signings in Jan, such as another good striking option, could see us going up. From there that would very much be job done as far as Bruce is concerned and we should look for someone better.

[TRO]

55 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

Are you seriously trying to say that Wolves have individually better players than us?

 

They have not. What they have is a better coaching and management style where the players are well drilled and know what to expect from each other and it shows. Pretty much any of our players would walk into that Wolves team and would do very very well.

 

You can only coach what is in there.....you can't make a "silk purse out of a sows ear"

yes, i am saying that in my view, wolves in the main have better players

Wolves have a number of players that are individually better equipped technically......to receive and effect the coaching you admire.

If what you say is true and with the money available at Wolves, expect a predatory attack in January on our squad......er I don't think so.

They are expecting to strengthen in Jan.....it will be intertesting to see.

Ps i can't believe you have mooted that first line.

Edited November 26, 2017 by TRO

[bannedfromHandV]

2 hours ago, vreitti said:

I've said numerous times recently I think he's doing great at the moment. But I'll reserve 'final judgment' until we've played a few more of the better teams, if you don't mind.

Cos ya know, we've only played like what 19 out of the 23 we're going to face right?! 

 

I mean thats only like 85% or something eh....... 

[Grasshopper]

1 hour ago, TheStagMan said:

Here we go again. We have won the game, so its fair game to insult and criticise anybody who dares to voice legitimate concerns about the way we are playing.

Yes, we have won the game, and that's great. we are up to fourth and that is also great - Bruce is doing what he needs to do and I am content with that. If it keeps going I will be very happy. 

However Sheffield Wednesday was only a couple of games ago and we looked poor and lost against an organised team. We have since played weak teams who were poor themselves. Ipswich were very poor, and after the second goal they pretty much gave up. We misplaced so many passes our players STILL look like strangers to each other. It was only after the second goal that we managed to keep hold of the ball for more than a few passes, by which time Ipswich weren't really pressing us.

My concern, and the thing I think Bruce is failing at is making this group of players into a consistent team that can take the pressure off themselves by holding onto the ball and passing to each other rather than relying on an ability to defend a lead. This is not a sustainable strategy for an entire season, no matter how well we defend. 

What we should have done by now is build a unit of a team that works well together and can keep hold of the damned ball. we should then be able to have a sensible plan for how to add quality to that same  team to improve us into the premier league to make sure we stay there. At the moment i am concerned that if we go up it will just be another round of buying decent players and hoping it works. Our two best players this season are players that were basically forced on Bruce (to say otherwise is very selective memory) - which doesn't bode well for his ability to keep us up. How many of the lauded 4 promotions have come straight back down or only survived one season?

 

That said, at the moment he is doing what he needs to do. He should be doing better with the players at his disposal, but wins are wins and as long as he keeps providing them then I will be happy for this season. 

As for what I want - I can take a battling or unlucky loss, that's football. What I cannot take is lacklustre football and lucky wins or reliance on individual flashes of brilliance. At the moment we are moving away from the latter, and if we start to see more of the former, consistently over a number of games then Bruce will be moving in the right direction. Until then, I and others have every right to criticise poor performances.  

This ^ 100%

The main problem about critisising the critisisers is.

If we end up second - Great. Bruce can stand on his head proud for all I care.

But if we fail 2nd by a point or 2 people will be pointing at „if only result x was result y........“

Missing put on 2nd only to lose in the playoffs is effectively the same as finishing 23rd.

In AT LEAST one game till the end of the season, our lack of „possesion football - stringing passes together......“ and all that stuff that is not „sitting back/inviting pressure......etc“ WILL cost us a victory, turn a draw into a defeat, even worst case senario having a 1 goal lead with 10 or so minutes to go conceeding twice and losing all 3pts.

This COULD be the fine margin to failure. I hope not and I’m passed caring if Bruce-Ball is the right or wrong way to do it.

I hope we get promoted and I don‘t care if its because or despite Bruce-Ball. We MUST get out of this league ASAP.

It will be more than infuriating if the fine margin is not in our favour. In fact it‘ll be a disaster.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Grasshopper

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

This ^ 100%

The main problem about critisising the critisisers is.

If we end up second - Great. Bruce can stand on his head proud for all I care.

But if we fail 2nd by a point or 2 people will be pointing at „if only result x was result y........“

Missing put on 2nd only to lose in the playoffs is effectively the same as finishing 23rd.

In AT LEAST one game till the end of the season, our lack of „possesion football - stringing passes together......“ and all that stuff that is not „sitting back/inviting pressure......etc“ WILL cost us a victory, turn a draw into a defeat, even worst case senario having a 1 goal lead with 10 or so minutes to go conceeding twice and losing all 3pts.

This COULD be the fine margin to failure. I hope not and I’m passed caring if Bruce-Ball is the right or wrong way to do it.

I hope we get promoted and I don‘t care if its because or despite Bruce-Ball. We MUST get out of this league ASAP.

It will be more than infuriating if the fine margin is not in our favour. In fact it‘ll be a disaster.

This time of year in 1980 we did not know we was going to win the league, the purist would have Ipswich as possibly the best footballing side, Liverpool on a slight decline by their standards.

We had unconvincing tags aimed at us then.

We can talk until the cows come home and the variables could drive you nuts.

We are well positioned, particularly after a poor start......SB knows what he has to do, doing it of course is a whole different ball game.....injuries and suspensions will be a huge test in view of the way we play.

It really is a game by game appraisal.

I know your position GH but even you would need big conkers to sack him at present.

With the squad he has, (i'm sure there will be some additions) he has chosen a way to play to get us up.......lets see if he can do it.

I'm sure the steve Bruce chants in the ground on Sat will help his confidence too.

[NurembergVillan]

2 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

Here we go again. We have won the game, so its fair game to insult and criticise anybody who dares to voice legitimate concerns about the way we are playing.

JUST TO BE CLEAR, NO IT'S ABSOLUTELY NOT FAIR GAME TO INSULT ANYBODY ON VT REGARDLESS OF THEIR VIEWS.

IF POSTERS FEEL INSULTS HAVE BEEN TRADED, THEY SHOULD USE THE REPORT FUNCTION.  WE'VE HAD NO REPORTS OF INSULTING BEHAVIOUR SINCE THE FINAL WHISTLE YESTERDAY.

THE MODERATING TEAM WORK HARD TO MAKE THIS A WEBSITE WHERE OPPOSING VIEWS CAN BE EXCHANGED FREELY AND WITH RESPECT.

LET'S NOT INVENT SCENARIOS, AND LET'S ALSO NOT IMAGINE THAT THEY'RE RECURRING ONES.

THANKS.

[srsmithusa]

If you read this thread even occasionally, you know my views.  Maybe even this one

CAN’t WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

We all want villa great.  We all want us promoted.  Some have seen the best course differently than others.  Some appear to see little other than positive news currently, while other see reasons to continue doubts.  Let’s debate the viewpoints and not the alleged absurdity of the view holder !   

I for one would welcome a more firm hand from mods about posting on posters (including this post, I suppose)

[srsmithusa]

5 hours ago, NurembergVillan said:

I'm going to move away from the gifs and stats for a minute and post a thought instead.  Imagine that!

I've been thinking about the massive upturn in form, not just from the team as whole but certain individuals.  Adomah has gone from a fairly handy but inconsistent winger to the Championship Ronaldo; Snodgrass has recaptured the form we saw of him last time he was in this division; Hutton actually looks like the Scottish Cafu, whichever side he's playing on.

Part of it is down to confidence.  Wins breed wins, and there's evidence of that here.  But I think the move for Adomah to the left (whilst perhaps forced through injury) has fundamentally changed the shape of the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 we were using prior to that.

Both Adomah and Snodgrass are inside forwards now.  They will always want to cut inside onto their stronger foot.  Full backs will always want to come with them because they're talented players in good form.  This opens up space down the flanks for the full-backs to fill, or for Onomah and/or Hourihane to drift into.  This means we've not only got a man running at the heart of the defence, but the chance to overlap with support.

It was apparent yesterday that when one of Albert or Snodders gets the ball out wide, they've got AT LEAST two options on most occasions.  The full back will get forward and go past if they can, and then two of the central players will join them too.  More often than not this is Onomah, who is thriving in his role behind Davis that allows him to find that space once the inside forwards go central.

If you think back, or get chance to see extended highlights anywhere, have a look at the shape when one of the wide players has the ball towards the touchline around 20-25 yards out.  It's hard for the opposition to mark against without completely losing their shape - unless they're playing two defensive midfielders.

Previously, with out-and-out wingers, there was nowhere for supporting players to go.  On the right, Adomah would want to get the ball over early or head for the byline.  This would lead to Hutton having nowhere to go and usually being 10 yards away from him.  The change in movement now is causing havoc for opposition defences.

Whilst the switch of sides for Adomah may have been forced, I think the change in style that has come with that is commendable for both the team and the coaching staff.  It's been a long time since I've seen us have so many options - viable ones - in attacking positions.

We just need Davis to find his shooting boots, and we'll start to tonk a few sides with this system.

Good post.  Good observation. This is the best explanation I’ve seen yet for what’s making us more successful.  

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

Are you seriously trying to say that Wolves have individually better players than us?

 

They have not. What they have is a better coaching and management style where the players are well drilled and know what to expect from each other and it shows. Pretty much any of our players would walk into that Wolves team and would do very very well.

 

It's all down to opinions and while I totally get where you are coming from I don't think we have a single player in our squad at the level of Jota and Neves. I'm not sure we have anyone as good as Cavalleiro either.  They are Premier League players in my opinion. 

[Nigel]

Jesus there is some ridiculous things written in this thread!

I get that some don't like Bruce but to use comments like 'wolves don't have individually better players than us' (seriously?) and 'sheffield wednesday was only a few weeks ago' (one off freak game) doesnt half make your points lose credance.

I'm positive there will be some legitimate ammunition against him in the next month or so but at the moment everythimg seems fine. Is it impossible to enjoy it?

Edited November 26, 2017 by Nigel

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

Here we go again. We have won the game, so its fair game to insult and criticise anybody who dares to voice legitimate concerns about the way we are playing.

Yes, we have won the game, and that's great. we are up to fourth and that is also great - Bruce is doing what he needs to do and I am content with that. If it keeps going I will be very happy. 

However Sheffield Wednesday was only a couple of games ago and we looked poor and lost against an organised team. We have since played weak teams who were poor themselves. Ipswich were very poor, and after the second goal they pretty much gave up. We misplaced so many passes our players STILL look like strangers to each other. It was only after the second goal that we managed to keep hold of the ball for more than a few passes, by which time Ipswich weren't really pressing us.

My concern, and the thing I think Bruce is failing at is making this group of players into a consistent team that can take the pressure off themselves by holding onto the ball and passing to each other rather than relying on an ability to defend a lead. This is not a sustainable strategy for an entire season, no matter how well we defend. 

What we should have done by now is build a unit of a team that works well together and can keep hold of the damned ball. we should then be able to have a sensible plan for how to add quality to that same  team to improve us into the premier league to make sure we stay there. At the moment i am concerned that if we go up it will just be another round of buying decent players and hoping it works. Our two best players this season are players that were basically forced on Bruce (to say otherwise is very selective memory) - which doesn't bode well for his ability to keep us up. How many of the lauded 4 promotions have come straight back down or only survived one season?

 

That said, at the moment he is doing what he needs to do. He should be doing better with the players at his disposal, but wins are wins and as long as he keeps providing them then I will be happy for this season. 

As for what I want - I can take a battling or unlucky loss, that's football. What I cannot take is lacklustre football and lucky wins or reliance on individual flashes of brilliance. At the moment we are moving away from the latter, and if we start to see more of the former, consistently over a number of games then Bruce will be moving in the right direction. Until then, I and others have every right to criticise poor performances.  

Would be a big mistake to keep him on for next season regardless of how this season finishes. I honestly think he will leave even if we go up. A thank you and Good luck. 

[Jareth]

If we get to the play-offs but end up back in this league, I can see Bruce staying on. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

25 minutes ago, Jareth said:

If we get to the play-offs but end up back in this league, I can see Bruce staying on. 

If that happens he would rightly be sacked.

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

If that happens he would rightly be sacked.

But if we finished 3rd and were unlucky in the play off final, I think the board would have a difficult decision. If finances allowed us to keep the nucleus of the team then I would have thought our best shot would be with bruce. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

2 minutes ago, Jareth said:

But if we finished 3rd and were unlucky in the play off final, I think the board would have a difficult decision. If finances allowed us to keep the nucleus of the team then I would have thought our best shot would be with bruce. 

With the enormous drop in income from the parachute payments next season I doubt the team will be kept together. That means that we need someone who can operate on far tighter resources, I do not see Bruce being that guy. I'd also consider no promotion a failure on his behalf. 

[Jareth]

Just now, Dr_Pangloss said:

With the enormous drop in income from the parachute payments next season I doubt the team will be kept together. That means that we need someone who can operate on far tighter resources, I do not see Bruce being that guy. I'd also consider no promotion a failure on his behalf. 

We'd need to cut our cloth, granted - but it's not end of days, we could probably flog Kodjia, Hogan and Mcoremack, lose the wages of Gabby and Hutton, use COH or Grealish instead of Snodgrass etc etc - we don't need a whole new team, nor would that be cost effective. In other words the possibility of the owner sticking with tried and tested is a possibility. 

[TheStagMan]

5 hours ago, TRO said:

You can only coach what is in there.....you can't make a "silk purse out of a sows ear"

yes, i am saying that in my view, wolves in the main have better players

Wolves have a number of players that are individually better equipped technically......to receive and effect the coaching you admire.

If what you say is true and with the money available at Wolves, expect a predatory attack in January on our squad......er I don't think so.

They are expecting to strengthen in Jan.....it will be intertesting to see.

Ps i can't believe you have mooted that first line.

Are you seriously saying our players are not good enough to be coached into a cohesive unit that can pass to each other? Wow! Our local kids teams can be coached to pass to each other. 

I absolutely disagree that Wolves are man for man better than us. They are not, they have some good players absolutely, but not individually better than ours. Was it you that said "Wolves are at their limit, whereas there is more to come from us"? 

As for predatory attacks, maybe we should be expecting us to raid Wolves if their players are so much better. I bet we won't.