Steve Bruce

[terrytini]

1 minute ago, AntrimBlack said:

I have not chosen anything. Xia, Wyness and Bruce set the target. We failed to make it. 

If you cannot understand what I posted, I will leave it at that.

This debate is so pointless.

Looks like you may not have rad the post I originally replied to.

Im afraid I don’t decide whether the season was a failure because Xia, Wyness, you, or the Wizard of Oz says so. And I repeat the simple yet true assertion that it’s a black and white view that ‘x’ points = success etc.

As for it being pointless, you didn’t have to reply to my Post, which was in itself a reply to someone else ?

[TheStagMan]

7 minutes ago, terrytini said:

See, that depends entirely on your point of view.

I got a great deal out of last season. Enjoyed some terrific games, some terrific wins, great experiences away from home and some new mates in our bit of the Holte, sang loads, loved the drama of being in the hunt for promotion, loved watching Terry and Snodgrass, and above all saw potentially the best youth product the Clubs had start to really flourish.

 

Yep, and now we are broke, wont be pushing for promotion next season (apparently) and will be lucky if we don't go into administration (apparently).

Promotion was everything last season and we failed.

[terrytini]

Just now, TheStagMan said:

Yep, and now we are broke, wont be pushing for promotion next season (apparently) and will be lucky if we don't go into administration (apparently).

Promotion was everything last season and we failed.

I was responding to the statement “ we have nothing to show for this season “

I don’t think football is all about getting promotion or winning Leagues. Anyone who does shoukd at least be prepared to be disappointed most seasons.

Ive said it 4 different ways in 2 pages so I will leave it there.

[trom_borg]

When you jeopardize the future existence of the club to reach a specific target , and that target is not achieved, it has to go down as a failure. That shoudve never happened of course, and with a more sensible long term approach from day one after our relegation this seasons results could have been seen with a different, less black and white view.  (I did enjoy lots of it too, which is the ultimate goal of football imo) But Bruce was always part of the "do everything to get promoted now" approach which failed.

Im not sure letting him go now is the best idea though. I think he lacks a lot of the skills we need in the sort of rebuild we find ourselves in now and ideally we should get a more progressive manager in. But I have limited trust in the management to actually find that person given the current circumstances, and switching Bruce for the wrong manager this summer can have dire consequences. 

[Jareth]

#TrustInPotatoHead

[USA_Villa]

6 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Not having a go at you directly Omar but I think VT needs a sticky at the top of the page about Dean Smith.

The Brentford set up is almost unique in football. Matthew Benham owns Brentford and Benham is a very succesful businessman. He studied at Oxford, worked in finance (including being a VP of Bank of America) then made a fortune with online gambling companies.

Brentford FC have a team of scouts and analysts and EVERY decision at the club is made by a consensus based on the results of the analytic data - even down to who is substituted and at what point in the game. 

Dean Smith runs the training drills and is head coach of Brentford. But the drills are chosen for him, the transfers are made by a completely different department and basically he isn't a 'football manager' in any old sense of the word. He is just the mouthpiece of the decisions based on the data and trys to keep team morale as high as possible.

Aston Villa is not set up this way. The 'manager' at Villa has a say in all of the decisions around the 1st team that I've mentioned. Training drills, picking the team, the substitutes, the setup, the transfers.

Dean Smith has never had to make any of those kind of decisions before. It would be an absolutely farcical decision to bring him here. It really would only slightly better than appointing a random Holte Ender to manage the club.

I know a lot of Villa fans seem to think that Dean Smith is an amazing manager based on watching his team beat Villa twice in the past two seasons and that they played some pretty football. However we also drew with them twice and finished 4th in the league compared to their position of 9th. 

If it were a choice between Bruce or Smith to manage Aston Villa with the way our club is setup to be managed, then the one choice that is guaranteed to end in absolute disaster is Dean Smith.

It Benham was interested in purchasing Villa it might be interesting to see how the system he has created would work at a club of our size and stature. But that would be the only person from Brentford's staff I would be open to coming to VP.

 

I'm afraid you're completely misguided in believing that the drills and setup of the team are decided for him. Nothing could be further from the truth. The playing side, style, etc. is totally in Dean smith's control. Where the Brentford way comes in to play is on the selection and sale of players. They have algorithms, models, etc that advise them when to select or sell players, their value, etc. 

 

[Rob182]

2 minutes ago, USA_Villa said:

I'm afraid you're completely misguided in believing that the drills and setup of the team are decided for him. Nothing could be further from the truth. The playing side, style, etc. is totally in Dean smith's control. Where the Brentford way comes in to play is on the selection and sale of players. They have algorithms, models, etc that advise them when to select or sell players, their value, etc. 

But, but, but ....Walsall!

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, terrytini said:

I was responding to the statement “ we have nothing to show for this season “

I don’t think football is all about getting promotion or winning Leagues. Anyone who does shoukd at least be prepared to be disappointed most seasons.

Ive said it 4 different ways in 2 pages so I will leave it there.

Thank feck, for that.

[sheepyvillian]

3 hours ago, Dave J said:

On the contrary I would debate with you until the cows come home - it's your attitude I struggle with in all honesty 

The phrase, " High Hat ", comes to mind. No need for struggle, Dave. Just go with the flow.

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, TheStagMan said:

Yep, and now we are broke, wont be pushing for promotion next season (apparently) and will be lucky if we don't go into administration (apparently).

Promotion was everything last season and we failed.

In a nutshell. 

[A'Villan]

1 hour ago, AntrimBlack said:

Bruce is staying. We might as well get behind him, however reluctantly.

Really, I think the debate on both sides has been done to death, and I have not seen a fresh comment for some time.

And that includes me, I have just been repeating the same old rhetoric in response to other posters.

I am boring myself now.

So I say, let's get behind him. Let's see what the new season brings.

Agree with this. From my limited view I can't see anyone but Bruce. I hope he proves me wrong.

That said there's a way to go before the new season KO and a lot to be answered for.

[vreitti]

1 hour ago, AntrimBlack said:

Bruce is staying. We might as well get behind him, however reluctantly.

Really, I think the debate on both sides has been done to death, and I have not seen a fresh comment for some time.

And that includes me, I have just been repeating the same old rhetoric in response to other posters.

I am boring myself now.

So I say, let's get behind him. Let's see what the new season brings.

Agreed. Resistance is futile. 

Looking for positives... perhaps more players now decide to stay and fight for the cause... yes Jack I'm thinking of you.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Rob182 said:

Like you, I've read lots about how Dean Smith is just a mouthpiece and a face that follows instructions given to him, but I think there must be more to him than that. It seems like we've just taken what we've heard from Brentford fans as gospel, and that Dean Smith has happily given up all of his ambition as a manager to simply follow orders. As others have said, he had a good reputation when he was at Walsall, especially at bringing through players and making profit on them, IIRC, and that was all done without Brentford's system underneath him.

I think, like most things that we don't know the full facts on, his involvement and input probably falls somewhere in the middle. How many times in a season will a manager happily be overruled when he wants to make a sub mid-game before he kicks up a fuss?

I guess we all hear different things, depending on who we speak to......I heard the contrary at Walsall, that they was glad to see the back of him.

I suspect when thousands of opinions are on trial, there is bound to be a divide.

[Rob182]

Just now, TRO said:

I guess we all hear different things, depending on who we speak to......I heard the contrary at Walsall, that they was glad to see the back of him.

I suspect when thousands of opinions are on trial, there is bound to be a divide.

Yep. I've worked closely with a Walsall fan for about 4 years, and he's always spoke highly of him. Especially with his ability to bring in cheap players and develop them (which could be what Brentford saw in him).

Speaking of which, if Brentford have this revolutionary model of doing everything democratically, then I'd be surprised if a team of brains all agreed that it would be a good idea to bring in a manager that was not even deemed good enough for Walsall by many.

I feel like I'm banging the Dean Smith drum too much. He's one of the names I like the sound of, and is similar in stature and reputation to the type of manager I'd be keen on, but I don't claim to be some expert on him, or for him to be my number one choice.

[bannedfromHandV]

12 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

Yep. I've worked closely with a Walsall fan for about 4 years, and he's always spoke highly of him. Especially with his ability to bring in cheap players and develop them (which could be what Brentford saw in him).

Speaking of which, if Brentford have this revolutionary model of doing everything democratically, then I'd be surprised if a team of brains all agreed that it would be a good idea to bring in a manager that was not even deemed good enough for Walsall by many.

I feel like I'm banging the Dean Smith drum too much. He's one of the names I like the sound of, and is similar in stature and reputation to the type of manager I'd be keen on, but I don't claim to be some expert on him, or for him to be my number one choice.

So someone who's never won or achieved anything of any significance, has never managed a club with a large fan base or a stadium of more than 15000 capacity and has only ever managed in the 'lower leagues'.

 

That's the stature and reputation we're/you're aiming for?

[TRO]

Steve Bruce, often comes under fire for his alleged poor handling of Tactics.....some have mentioned his dismissive remarks at Sunderland when asked a question from a journalist ( maybe he was in a bad mood or irritated by the question), but nevertheless a point some fans feel obliged to pick up on.

Personally, I think the business of tactics plays a part in football and the current game, but I do not subscribe to the theory that it is responsible for games as much as some do.....That is not to be construed as I don't think it matters or Steve Bruce doesn't think it matters.....but I do suspect that some fans use it, when other factors are equally at play.

I found a piece interesting to me, in Neil Warnocks book " The Gaffer".....let me quote you, for those that haven't already read it.....page 266.

Quote :

We had a meeting with the players' committee. Kieron Dyer was the voice of reason - It would have been chaos without him. I said to them, " You can talk about tactics, physio,Fitness guy,coaching......do you think that was the reason Anton couldn't stay with Dzeko? Do you think that was the reason Luke Young couldn't stop the cross? Do you think that was the reason Gabbidon didn't jump with Toure? Thats Rubbish. We lost because we didn't defend well, nothing to do with tactics and facilities"

Now, I guess even Neil Warnock, would not dismiss tactics out of hand, but I think what he was saying is.....don't hide behind it......we lost because of you lot and your handling of your job.

Tactics is a factor in the game....but not the be all and end all.

ps being the cynic, I can be....I guess if that was Neil Warnock at QPR, his comments would be dismissed by some who would major on the person commenting.....now he is a championship promoted manager, his comments may be of more credence to some......I was more interested in the comments from an experienced manager, irrespective of who he was.

Edited June 14, 2018 by TRO

[Rob182]

2 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

So someone who's never won or achieved anything of any significance, has never managed a club with a large fan base or a stadium of more than 15000 capacity and has only ever managed in the 'lower leagues'.

 

That's the stature and reputation we're/you're aiming for?

Obviously that isn't my exact criteria, but I believe those things go hand in hand with 'up and coming' or, dare I say it, 'young and hungry' managers.

If you're only interested in managers that have managed a club with a large fanbase and stadium, you'll end up with the usual suspects: Mick McCarthy, Steve Bruce, Steve McLaren... No thank you.

[USA_Villa]

14 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

So someone who's never won or achieved anything of any significance, has never managed a club with a large fan base or a stadium of more than 15000 capacity and has only ever managed in the 'lower leagues'.

 

That's the stature and reputation we're/you're aiming for?

What exactly has Steve Bruce won since he's been with us with the most expensive squad ever assembled in the Championship?

[fifamad]

Fistface will be here for our opening league fixture in August unfortunately. 

[villianusa]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Steve Bruce, often comes under fire for his alleged poor handling of Tactics.....some have mentioned his dismissive remarks at Sunderland when asked a question from a journalist ( maybe he was in a bad mood or irritated by the question), but nevertheless a point some fans feel obliged to pick up on.

Personally, I think the business of tactics plays a part in football and the current game, but I do not subscribe to the theory that it is responsible for games as much as some do.....That is not to be construed as I don't think it matters or Steve Bruce doesn't think it matters.....but I do suspect that some fans use it, when other factors are equally at play.

I found a piece interesting to me, in Neil Warnocks book " The Gaffer".....let me quote you, for those that haven't already read it.....page 266.

Quote :

We had a meeting with the players' committee. Kieron Dyer was the voice of reason - It would have been chaos without him. I said to them, " You can talk about tactics, physio,Fitness guy,coaching......do you think that was the reason Anton couldn't stay with Dzeko? Do you think that was the reason Luke Young couldn't stop the cross? Do you think that was the reason Gabbidon didn't jump with Toure? Thats Rubbish. We lost because we didn't defend well, nothing to do with tactics and facilities"

Now, I guess even Neil Warnock, would not dismiss tactics out of hand, but I think what he was saying is.....don't hide behind it......we lost because of you lot and your handling of your job.

Tactics is a factor in the game....but not the be all and end all.

Yet, if you are tactically poor then you are more likely to be out of position when defending (i.e Hutton in playoff final). If he had been tactically good he wouldn't have defended poorly. From my coaching experience if you get your tactics right, you can make even poorer players look good. You see this in cup games when lower teams beat teams from much higher division when they get their tactics right on the night. Chelsea parking the bus to win the Champions League. I know there are other things that come into it, but for me tactics are very high on the list.

If you are in the right place at the right time it is much easier to do your job, this is in offensive and defensive positions. This comes down to tactics and position awareness.

For me the first half of the play-offs showed it things up badly. If the tactics were a long ball to Grabban and for him to hold it up and lay it off to teammates then it worked very badly. If it was for pretty much every long pass to be received by Fulham then he was tactically strong. I don't believe it was the latter. 

I have supported Bruce and continue to do so, but he has either got his tactics wrong on occasions, or his player's aren't listen to him, or they aren't good enough to get the job done. Most of the team are international players at some level, so they should have been good enough, so it does leave me with questions.