Steve Bruce

[hippo]

20 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I know it’s a completely different kettle of fish but he did very well at Walsall before getting his move. Left a team that nearly made automatic promotion. Something that is very rare for a club the size of Walsall.

Dean Smiths best placing with Walsall was 9th.  I wouldn't class that as nearly winning automatic promotion - indeed its not even a play off place. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, hippo said:

Dean Smiths best placing with Walsall was 9th.  I wouldn't class that as nearly winning automatic promotion - indeed its not even a play off place. 

I thought the team he left half way through the season was already in the top 2 at the time and the manager that took over actually ended up missing out on 2nd by goal difference. 

I guess you could argue that achievement was down to the manager that took over. 

 

[hippo]

Just now, Vive_La_Villa said:

I thought the team he left half way through the season was already in the top 2 at the time and the manager that took over actually ended up missing out on 2nd by goal difference. 

I guess you could argue that achievement was down to the manager that took over. 

 

You could do - I am not saying he did a bad job at Walsall - but their best placing under smith was 9th. 

 

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Not having a go at you directly Omar but I think VT needs a sticky at the top of the page about Dean Smith.

The Brentford set up is almost unique in football. Matthew Benham owns Brentford and Benham is a very succesful businessman. He studied at Oxford, worked in finance (including being a VP of Bank of America) then made a fortune with online gambling companies.

Brentford FC have a team of scouts and analysts and EVERY decision at the club is made by a consensus based on the results of the analytic data - even down to who is substituted and at what point in the game. 

Dean Smith runs the training drills and is head coach of Brentford. But the drills are chosen for him, the transfers are made by a completely different department and basically he isn't a 'football manager' in any old sense of the word. He is just the mouthpiece of the decisions based on the data and trys to keep team morale as high as possible.

Aston Villa is not set up this way. The 'manager' at Villa has a say in all of the decisions around the 1st team that I've mentioned. Training drills, picking the team, the substitutes, the setup, the transfers.

Dean Smith has never had to make any of those kind of decisions before. It would be an absolutely farcical decision to bring him here. It really would only slightly better than appointing a random Holte Ender to manage the club.

I know a lot of Villa fans seem to think that Dean Smith is an amazing manager based on watching his team beat Villa twice in the past two seasons and that they played some pretty football. However we also drew with them twice and finished 4th in the league compared to their position of 9th. 

If it were a choice between Bruce or Smith to manage Aston Villa with the way our club is setup to be managed, then the one choice that is guaranteed to end in absolute disaster is Dean Smith.

It Benham was interested in purchasing Villa it might be interesting to see how the system he has created would work at a club of our size and stature. But that would be the only person from Brentford's staff I would be open to coming to VP.

 

This is a top, top post. 

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, Dave J said:

As always with you - the undertone is that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

And on this basis there really is no point in continuing this debate I'm afraid.

I would like too - but I'm not going  too.

Nope. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I challenge an opinion if I don't agree with it. Of course there are times when I think someone is wrong, that is the entire point of debate. If I think someone is wrong, as I often think you are, then i'll try to argue my point. That is the entire point of VillaTalk. I'm not sure why you seem to have such an issue with this.

 

As always with YOU, someone has tried to argue a point with you, and instead of actually posting something, you've thrown your toys out of the pram and said there's no point in continuing a debate. It's the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "nah nah nah I can't hear you"

[Stevo985]

8 hours ago, omariqy said:

You should never continue with failure because of an apparent lack of options. That is a futile exercise. There are plenty of young coaches who have cultivated a team and an identity without spending money. Nathan Jones at Luton, Oscar Garcia, Dean Smith never mind the options abroad. 

And like I keep saying, if we can appoint a better alternative than Bruce, then great. Sack him right now.

But with our financial restraints I don't think we are in any position to appoint someone better. I hope I'm wrong.

Next season isn't about promotion. It's about survival. That is the reality if the finances are as bad as they appear. And under those entirely different circumstances, keeping Steve Bruce is a pretty good option.

I think some people are in for a nasty shock next season.

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Not having a go at you directly Omar but I think VT needs a sticky at the top of the page about Dean Smith.

The Brentford set up is almost unique in football. Matthew Benham owns Brentford and Benham is a very succesful businessman. He studied at Oxford, worked in finance (including being a VP of Bank of America) then made a fortune with online gambling companies.

Brentford FC have a team of scouts and analysts and EVERY decision at the club is made by a consensus based on the results of the analytic data - even down to who is substituted and at what point in the game. 

Dean Smith runs the training drills and is head coach of Brentford. But the drills are chosen for him, the transfers are made by a completely different department and basically he isn't a 'football manager' in any old sense of the word. He is just the mouthpiece of the decisions based on the data and trys to keep team morale as high as possible.

Aston Villa is not set up this way. The 'manager' at Villa has a say in all of the decisions around the 1st team that I've mentioned. Training drills, picking the team, the substitutes, the setup, the transfers.

Dean Smith has never had to make any of those kind of decisions before. It would be an absolutely farcical decision to bring him here. It really would only slightly better than appointing a random Holte Ender to manage the club.

I know a lot of Villa fans seem to think that Dean Smith is an amazing manager based on watching his team beat Villa twice in the past two seasons and that they played some pretty football. However we also drew with them twice and finished 4th in the league compared to their position of 9th. 

If it were a choice between Bruce or Smith to manage Aston Villa with the way our club is setup to be managed, then the one choice that is guaranteed to end in absolute disaster is Dean Smith.

It Benham was interested in purchasing Villa it might be interesting to see how the system he has created would work at a club of our size and stature. But that would be the only person from Brentford's staff I would be open to coming to VP.

 

The elevated opinion of Dean Smith really is quite remarkable.

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

And like I keep saying, if we can appoint a better alternative than Bruce, then great. Sack him right now.

But with our financial restraints I don't think we are in any position to appoint someone better. I hope I'm wrong.

Next season isn't about promotion. It's about survival. That is the reality if the finances are as bad as they appear. And under those entirely different circumstances, keeping Steve Bruce is a pretty good option.

I think some people are in for a nasty shock next season.

Shouldn’t we look for a manager that has a record of keeping players in this league against the odds? Or is that too simplistic ?

I do agree in terms of manager with a half decent record we will struggle to attract better than Bruce. I think some fans want us to take a chance on someone else regardless of their record.  Kind of ironic considering the state we are in following previous gambles.

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Vive_La_Villa

[Vive_La_Villa]

4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

The elevated opinion of Dean Smith really is quite remarkable.

It only seems remarkable because we have been informed about his role at the club and how much Brentford’s achievement are due to the running of the club rather than the manager. 

Without knowing this a person would understandably credit Dean Smith for how Brentford have done whilst making profits each year on transfers.  On that basis it’s not so remarkable imo. 

[Hoof hearted]

9 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

The elevated opinion of Dean Smith really is quite remarkable.

I think most (on here)  just see him as a Villa fan first and the management bit is a bonus, it's a bit like the Jack Grealish debacle but in reverse.

[Stevo985]

13 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

It only seems remarkable because we have been informed about his role at the club and how much Brentford’s achievement are due to the running of the club rather than the manager. 

Without knowing this a person would understandably credit Dean Smith for how Brentford have done whilst making profits each year on transfers.  On that basis it’s not so remarkable imo. 

I guess so. But I still think most people on VT's opinion of Dean Smith is based on the few games they've played against us as opposed to his achievements overall.

[Stevo985]

8 minutes ago, Hoof hearted said:

I think most (on here)  just see him as a Villa fan first and the management bit is a bonus, it's a bit like the Jack Grealish debacle but in reverse.

Which is fine, but being a Villa fan doesn't make you a good manager.

[AntrimBlack]

2 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Not having a go at you directly Omar but I think VT needs a sticky at the top of the page about Dean Smith.

The Brentford set up is almost unique in football. Matthew Benham owns Brentford and Benham is a very succesful businessman. He studied at Oxford, worked in finance (including being a VP of Bank of America) then made a fortune with online gambling companies.

Brentford FC have a team of scouts and analysts and EVERY decision at the club is made by a consensus based on the results of the analytic data - even down to who is substituted and at what point in the game. 

Dean Smith runs the training drills and is head coach of Brentford. But the drills are chosen for him, the transfers are made by a completely different department and basically he isn't a 'football manager' in any old sense of the word. He is just the mouthpiece of the decisions based on the data and trys to keep team morale as high as possible.

Aston Villa is not set up this way. The 'manager' at Villa has a say in all of the decisions around the 1st team that I've mentioned. Training drills, picking the team, the substitutes, the setup, the transfers.

Dean Smith has never had to make any of those kind of decisions before. It would be an absolutely farcical decision to bring him here. It really would only slightly better than appointing a random Holte Ender to manage the club.

I know a lot of Villa fans seem to think that Dean Smith is an amazing manager based on watching his team beat Villa twice in the past two seasons and that they played some pretty football. However we also drew with them twice and finished 4th in the league compared to their position of 9th. 

If it were a choice between Bruce or Smith to manage Aston Villa with the way our club is setup to be managed, then the one choice that is guaranteed to end in absolute disaster is Dean Smith.

It Benham was interested in purchasing Villa it might be interesting to see how the system he has created would work at a club of our size and stature. But that would be the only person from Brentford's staff I would be open to coming to VP.

 

Very interesting and informative post.

[Okonokos]

49 minutes ago, hippo said:

You could do - I am not saying he did a bad job at Walsall - but their best placing under smith was 9th. 

 

They were fourth when he left and right in the title race.

[bannedfromHandV]

37 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

It only seems remarkable because we have been informed about his role at the club and how much Brentford’s achievement are due to the running of the club rather than the manager. 

Without knowing this a person would understandably credit Dean Smith for how Brentford have done whilst making profits each year on transfers.  On that basis it’s not so remarkable imo. 

Or, people could do a tiny bit of research before posting.......

[Hoof hearted]

26 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Which is fine, but being a Villa fan doesn't make you a good manager.

I dunno mate, the way some speak on here you'd be mistaken for thinking they're Sir Alex of Wenger.

[omariqy]

I know all of that about Brentford but he is still a good coach and gets the best out of players. There is no reason why we can't be set up in a similar way. In fact we have Steve Round with his Villa Engine trying to do something very similar behind the scenes. Smith would not be my first choice at all but he is a good coach. No way do I expect promotion next year but we need to give a manager 2/3 years to build a new team, identity and try and get us promoted. Bruce isn't that man. If we were going down the same route as last year by buying experience and having another crack at it then maybe but we can't do that. 

[Dave J]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

Nope. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I challenge an opinion if I don't agree with it. Of course there are times when I think someone is wrong, that is the entire point of debate. If I think someone is wrong, as I often think you are, then i'll try to argue my point. That is the entire point of VillaTalk. I'm not sure why you seem to have such an issue with this.

 

As always with YOU, someone has tried to argue a point with you, and instead of actually posting something, you've thrown your toys out of the pram and said there's no point in continuing a debate. It's the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "nah nah nah I can't hear you"

On the contrary I would debate with you until the cows come home - it's your attitude I struggle with in all honesty 

[TRO]

11 hours ago, terrytini said:

Leaving aside the pro v anti debate, I’m intrigued that for you a season is a failure because we didn’t get promoted.

Doesnt that mean it was a failure for 82 Clubs ? All except the promoted ones and the PL winners ?

I’ve never viewed football that way and didn’t really realise anybody else did ?

My favourite season as a Villa fan was in 75/76 ( I think) when we were 5th or 6th. Yet it was a failed season ?

I share that thinking.

of course we all want titles and silverware......but incremental improvement, has to be success.....failure for me is incremental decline.

[AntrimBlack]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

I share that thinking.

of course we all want titles and silverware......but incremental improvement, has to be success.....failure for me is incremental decline.

Wheras I would say failing to hit a specified target is failure.