Steve Bruce

[sne]

At one point during the Christmas period we were 7 points from the play off spots with half the season to go.

I think it was possible to reach

Then January collapse screwed us over.

Edit: Looking at the table at Footstats it says we were only 4 pts behind Leeds sitting at 6th after 20 rounds albeit we were in 13th. (Not sure that's accurate tbh)

Edited January 3, 2018 by sne

[briny_ear]

2 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Indeed, and as we all know, where you're concerned, it firmly doesn't.

Let me just say I have no clue what this discussion is about but I am enjoyIng it a lot. No idea what comes next!

[bannedfromHandV]

48 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Let me just say I have no clue what this discussion is about but I am enjoyIng it a lot. No idea what comes next!

Probably between 2-3 words per line, lots of CAPS LOCK and the occasional 'alternative fact'..............would be my best guess.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, striker said:

If that is the case TRO how do you explain why some managers are more successful than others and why some managers get more out of a team than his predecessor?

Because they improve the whole environment....recruitment, scouting, motivation,....many many factors.....mental aura of the whole thing.

Its like i said in my post of course they have an affect on a game.....but Imo not as much as some fans allude to.

but that does not make me right.....its just how i see it.

it can also be said how most managers have a shelf life and that can depend on their overall ability....its widely recognised a "voice" can only last so long.

I have always been an advocate of relying on the quality of the players to sustain success.....the more you have with quality the better affect and subsequently the work rate improves through positive activity.....confidence.

I see a manager more like the music conductor and the players as the orchestra.

but hey, just my view.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

 

It is not two seasons later is it. It is his first full season in charge and whilst you may be talking about play offs I think we have a great chance of automatic and I doubt I am alone in that thinking.

The target for Bruce this season is promotion and we are currently just five points off the position we need to be in on May 6th with 20 games to go. I see the play offs as a fall back position but no more than that.

The thing for me Mark, is consistency is the holy grail.

We can all pick games to base our projections for the finish or even a small batch of games....but unless there is consistency, its so difficult to predict.

We are capable, if we can sustain form like monday night.

but i guess a fair number of clubs can say the same.

ps I would exclude Wolves purely on the basis of their excellent consistency to win games.

[DaveAV1]

29 minutes ago, TRO said:

t can also be said how most managers have a shelf life and that can depend on their overall ability....its widely recognised a "voice" can only last so long

I’m pretty sure it was Shankly, that said something like, “You can only make the same speech so many times, then either the players have to go or you do.”

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I’m pretty sure it was Shankly, that said something like, “You can only make the same speech so many times, then either the players have to go or you do.”

Yeah its what i was aluding to Dave.

but as you say.....the the clever ones like SAF just keep the replacement cycle ,well and truly oiled.

easy said when you manage a club like that.

Edited January 3, 2018 by TRO

[HanoiVillan]

4 hours ago, pacbuddies said:

He had plenty enough games left last season to get us into a promotion situation. He did it with SHA with an inferior squad of players and less games to play.

We were, like, 21st or something with a quarter of the season gone and a midfield of Westwood and Gardner. 

[Grasshopper]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

Because they improve the whole environment....recruitment, scouting, motivation,....many many factors.....mental aura of the whole thing.

Its like i said in my post of course they have an affect on a game.....but Imo not as much as some fans allude to.

but that does not make me right.....its just how i see it.

it can also be said how most managers have a shelf life and that can depend on their overall ability....its widely recognised a "voice" can only last so long.

I have always been an advocate of relying on the quality of the players to sustain success.....the more you have with quality the better affect and subsequently the work rate improves through positive activity.....confidence.

I see a manager more like the music conductor and the players as the orchestra.

but hey, just my view.

I went to an orchestea concert recently. It was stuff from Britton and Elgar. By the time they got to Nimrod (Elgar variations) the conductor had them playing Everything too fast to the point that I wanted to punch him out, speaking to others afterwards everyone to a man said the conductor ruined the pieces for them.

No matter how good or bad the players are, if the manager is shit then you wont get full potential out of the players

[sidcow]

20 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

I went to an orchestea concert recently. It was stuff from Britton and Elgar. By the time they got to Nimrod (Elgar variations) the conductor had them playing Everything too fast to the point that I wanted to punch him out, speaking to others afterwards everyone to a man said the conductor ruined the pieces for them.

No matter how good or bad the players are, if the manager is shit then you wont get full potential out of the players

Some people just don't know how to conduct themselves.  

Edited January 3, 2018 by sidcow

[Rob182]

20 hours ago, striker said:

Don’t think I’ve stated the second part of your post. 

I didn’t say you had, but this was something that was repeated over and over, whenever the discussion of playoffs was brought up. So I’m just saying, at least we’ve got that monkey off our backs now.

[Dave J]

6 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

I don't think last season was ever realistic was it. Wyness was stating in March that they hadn't realised how much of a mess the club was in until months after they had arrived.

I am repeating what I said in an earlier post but Bruce inherited a shambles. A club that had been bottom feeders in the Prem for 6 years, with a handful of wins in 18 months, no away wins in 15 months, 1 win in 12 to start the season. I know we spent a fortune for this level over the summer before he arrived but much of it wasn't spent well and we were trying to integrate new players into a squad still made up of players with a losers mentality ingrained in it 

I don't know what Bruce inherited at Sha when he went there but we do know the mess he came into here and I don't think it was realistic to turn that around inside 30 odd games and have us competing for promotion.

This season is a different kettle of fish and promotion is the aim and he will be judged accordingly against that expectation come the end of the season. For what it is worth I think he will achieve what was expected.

To be honest I hold a fundamentally opposite view - with what he inherited and with the resource made available in January he had more than enough to have made the play offs - something that I feel both he and the club also felt achievable- he failed miserably in my humble opinion last season and despite a fantastic victory against Bristol - for which I take no credit away from him for - he is still under achieving with the resource at his disposal - a resource that most managers in this league can only wish for - let's be honest here, if the Bristol result had gone the other way the clamour for his resignation would have gone ballistic, again in my view - again let's be honest we have looked far from the real deal have we ? And whilst I do not have the stats in front of me - my guess would be that we have spent more time out of the plays off than in it ??

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Grasshopper said:

I went to an orchestea concert recently. It was stuff from Britton and Elgar. By the time they got to Nimrod (Elgar variations) the conductor had them playing Everything too fast to the point that I wanted to punch him out, speaking to others afterwards everyone to a man said the conductor ruined the pieces for them.

No matter how good or bad the players are, if the manager is shit then you wont get full potential out of the players

I accept it is not mutually exclusive.....but if the orchestra is poor the conductor won't make them good either.

Both factors have to be right.

[Grasshopper]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

I accept it is not mutually exclusive.....but if the orchestra is poor the conductor won't make them good either.

Both factors have to be right.

well v Bristol the players certainly showed they can

guess which factor is wrong at AVFC?

[sne]

And what happens if the song or piece the conductor has them playing is crap or flawed? 

 

[Stevo985]

This is a terrible analogy.

[Grasshopper]

5 minutes ago, sne said:

And what happens if the song or piece the conductor has them playing is crap or flawed? 

 

you‘ll have to ask Bach, Beethoven and a number of graveyard prowlers before you ask Brucian era conductor Sir Steve Hoofitlong

Edited January 3, 2018 by Grasshopper

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

This is a terrible analogy.

I don't think it really matters whether its good or bad and that is subjective in itself.

The intransigence and failure to see the intended reference is by some is inevitable.

I could come up with a much better Analogy...... to no avail.

[srsmithusa]

5 hours ago, TRO said:

Because they improve the whole environment....recruitment, scouting, motivation,....many many factors.....mental aura of the whole thing.

Its like i said in my post of course they have an affect on a game.....but Imo not as much as some fans allude to.

but that does not make me right.....its just how i see it.

it can also be said how most managers have a shelf life and that can depend on their overall ability....its widely recognised a "voice" can only last so long.

I have always been an advocate of relying on the quality of the players to sustain success.....the more you have with quality the better affect and subsequently the work rate improves through positive activity.....confidence.

I see a manager more like the music conductor and the players as the orchestra.

but hey, just my view.

TRO, I still think that while we most often disagree in our final perspective, our thought processes are similar.  I agree with this post, completely.  But you seem confident (I'm not sure where that confidence is coming from) that all those good and important things are being done.   In fact, I look at who starts, where they play, how they don't seem to be progressing, how there seems to be mismatch between the system employed and the player personnel selected and I see plenty of evidence that those good and important things are NOT being done.  I hope you are right.  New Years Day was great fun.  I just don't see the evidence that you do.

TBF, we are improved and better than we were when he took over, just not 15 months and a couple dozen million pounds better, IMO.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

TRO, I still think that while we most often disagree in our final perspective, our thought processes are similar.  I agree with this post, completely.  But you seem confident (I'm not sure where that confidence is coming from) that all those good and important things are being done.   In fact, I look at who starts, where they play, how they don't seem to be progressing, how there seems to be mismatch between the system employed and the player personnel selected and I see plenty of evidence that those good and important things are NOT being done.  I hope you are right.  New Years Day was great fun.  I just don't see the evidence that you do.

TBF, we are improved and better than we were when he took over, just not 15 months and a couple dozen million pounds better, IMO.

The thing we are lacking is consistency.....We have proved in games we can do it.

That includes the manager, the coaches and the players.......What we need to prove is that we can do it more often than not.

Not so long ago, that performance on Monday would have been a pipe dream, so there is improvement.......We just have to improve more by instilling consistency and eradicating performances, like at Brentford.

We are getting there even though its little splurges and then set backs, but if the graph overall is in the ascendency, thats improvement.