Villa Park redevelopment

[blandy]

3 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I know nothing about underground construction.

perhaps @a m ole can help? 

[a m ole]

13 minutes ago, blandy said:

perhaps @a m ole can help? 

I can’t see how I would be of any use.

[paul514]

3 hours ago, sidcow said:

There is 1 other city centre site up for development in the medium to long term and that is Martineau Galleries which covers the multi story car park/office building above HMV Vault/Where Toys R Us used to be plus the old Argos / Oasis / Hummingbird block. 

It's owned by Hammerson who own The Bullring.  Original plans were for a new big Shopping Centre which obviously fell through when Retail died, then they were looking at a new Office cluster, well again that's probably difficult now. 

So basically it's all just been on hold for years. 

I'm sure someone like Fortress could buy it and develop a multi use area with a stadium, bars, tall apartment blocks, some retail element etc. 

Very central, easily big enough, right on the door of HS2, The Metro, Moor Street and New Street stations. 

In many ways it would actually be the perfect city Centre location in the central area that needs development the most. 

I would 100% use public transport to go to matches then. 

The main problem would be the cost to buy it, depends on how confident Hammerson are that they can really turn it into something highly profitable for them or if they think its all a gamble and would prefer to just sell it on. 

I have been saying exactly this.

If money were no object this is where a new ground should be..... right next to Aston Uni as well

[thabucks]

For any stadia geeks like me here’s some Interesting reading from KPMG &  UEFA 

https://assets.kpmg/content/dam/kpmg/pdf/2013/11/blueprint-successful-stadium-development.pdf 

https://editorial.uefa.com/resources/01f9-0f842793b513-3ec14e88e0ef-1000/uefa_guide_to_quality_stadiums.pdf 

(sorry mods they are pdf’s so cannot quote an extract) 

[HolteExile]

5 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

Villa Park was built over a pool - I'm sure I read somewhere that the water table isn't too far down. I'm not sure how much heffect that would have in terms of keeping underground parking watertight - probably nothing I guess, I know nothing about underground construction.

 

Not convinced we need an underground car park. 

We already have land in and around the stadium that could provide adequate space for a multi level car park if we want to go that route. 

But I have felt for a while that excavating below ground level to give us a smaller extra tier all the way round could solve the capacity question. Both the Nou Camp,  Bernabéu and Porto's old ground have one level below ground level and the scale is something else when you enter from the street and look down. If we had had only half the size of the former's lower tiers, that's still prob close to additional 10,000 capacity at a stroke.  With no need to bulldoze any of the current stands.  

'd still probably look at levelling the Doug Ellis stand, if possible. It's a stand with no real architectural merit, was done on the cheap and won't be missed. With that lower tier, you wouldn't need to build higher than the current stand, so less grief (in theory) from the local residents. 

You'd still keep the fundamental character of Villa Park as well, but the ground will be that bit tighter and closer to the pitch. Close in the corners similar to the way Rangers have and you'd have a genuine amphitheatre.  I'd keep the North Stand personally, and just modernise the back of it and the concourses.   It's the last link to our great teams of the 70s, 80s and 90s. 

[OutByEaster?]

50 minutes ago, HolteExile said:

But I have felt for a while that excavating below ground level to give us a smaller extra tier all the way round could solve the capacity question. Both the Nou Camp,  Bernabéu and Porto's old ground have one level below ground level and the scale is something else when you enter from the street and look down. If we had had only half the size of the former's lower tiers, that's still prob close to additional 10,000 capacity at a stroke.  With no need to bulldoze any of the current stands.  

'd still probably look at levelling the Doug Ellis stand, if possible. It's a stand with no real architectural merit, was done on the cheap and won't be missed. With that lower tier, you wouldn't need to build higher than the current stand, so less grief (in theory) from the local residents. 

You'd still keep the fundamental character of Villa Park as well, but the ground will be that bit tighter and closer to the pitch. Close in the corners similar to the way Rangers have and you'd have a genuine amphitheatre.  I'd keep the North Stand personally, and just modernise the back of it and the concourses.   It's the last link to our great teams of the 70s, 80s and 90s. 

I agree with you on the underground parking and wouldn't be too surprised to see us go with a multi-storey.

The excavated lower tier wouldn't work though would it? There's only about three meters on each side around the pitch, and you need that space to take throw ins - you wouldn't be able to add seats in front of the ones we've already got - to go lower you need to go forward - there just isn't room.

i suspect what we'll get in the next few weeks are plans for a new three tier North stand, in brick, that curves around from the Trinity Road and ends on a straight line parallel to Witton Lane - a sort of rectangle joined by a quarter circle at the Trinity Road end. I think we'll get a big building with a large concourse, banqueting facilities, a central tier that might be a hopsitality members job (like at Wembley) and a new shop and ticket office built into the stand and I think we might see both a multi-storey car park and a box park type affair on the car park behind the North stand to replace the existing office building and the academy building. I'm really looking forward to see what we come up with.

[OutByEaster?]

4 hours ago, sidcow said:

I would say its definitely big enough but yes, we'd have to compete with the housing developers. 

Martinez Galleries is about 140m x 230m - it's a tiny bit smaller than the current Villa Park without the car parks.

We'd be looking for something 300m x 300m for a modern stadium - even the Smithfields site would be a tight squeeze.

There's no chance we're moving anyway.

[Follyfoot]

5 hours ago, sidcow said:

There is 1 other city centre site up for development in the medium to long term and that is Martineau Galleries which covers the multi story car park/office building above HMV Vault/Where Toys R Us used to be plus the old Argos / Oasis / Hummingbird block. 

It's owned by Hammerson who own The Bullring.  Original plans were for a new big Shopping Centre which obviously fell through when Retail died, then they were looking at a new Office cluster, well again that's probably difficult now. 

So basically it's all just been on hold for years. 

I'm sure someone like Fortress could buy it and develop a multi use area with a stadium, bars, tall apartment blocks, some retail element etc. 

Very central, easily big enough, right on the door of HS2, The Metro, Moor Street and New Street stations. 

In many ways it would actually be the perfect city Centre location in the central area that needs development the most. 

I would 100% use public transport to go to matches then. 

The main problem would be the cost to buy it, depends on how confident Hammerson are that they can really turn it into something highly profitable for them or if they think its all a gamble and would prefer to just sell it on. 

If we had a new stadium in town would we have to drink outside of town before and after the games or could we come to some arrangement for a day pass off Blues on the basis we only use the bars in the stadium then. Apart from everything else that could be the biggest stumbling block

[sidcow]

28 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Martinez Galleries is about 140m x 230m - it's a tiny bit smaller than the current Villa Park without the car parks.

We'd be looking for something 300m x 300m for a modern stadium - even the Smithfields site would be a tight squeeze.

There's no chance we're moving anyway.

Yeah, I agree we're not moving.   All just hypothetical. 

There is nowhere that would be cheaper than just buying up the houses on Holte Road. 

[The Fun Factory]

2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I agree with you on the underground parking and wouldn't be too surprised to see us go with a multi-storey.

The excavated lower tier wouldn't work though would it? There's only about three meters on each side around the pitch, and you need that space to take throw ins - you wouldn't be able to add seats in front of the ones we've already got - to go lower you need to go forward - there just isn't room.

i suspect what we'll get in the next few weeks are plans for a new three tier North stand, in brick, that curves around from the Trinity Road and ends on a straight line parallel to Witton Lane - a sort of rectangle joined by a quarter circle at the Trinity Road end. I think we'll get a big building with a large concourse, banqueting facilities, a central tier that might be a hopsitality members job (like at Wembley) and a new shop and ticket office built into the stand and I think we might see both a multi-storey car park and a box park type affair on the car park behind the North stand to replace the existing office building and the academy building. I'm really looking forward to see what we come up with.

Lovely-jubbly. That would do for me.

[leighavfc]

1 hour ago, Follyfoot said:

If we had a new stadium in town would we have to drink outside of town before and after the games or could we come to some arrangement for a day pass off Blues on the basis we only use the bars in the stadium then. Apart from everything else that could be the biggest stumbling block

MATE

[HolteExile]

2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

 

The excavated lower tier wouldn't work though would it? There's only about three meters on each side around the pitch, and you need that space to take throw ins - you wouldn't be able to add seats in front of the ones we've already got - to go lower you need to go forward - there just isn't room.

 

Historically we have one of the biggest pitches in the country (at one stage, just behind Wembley, I believe). 

We could lose some of that width + length and still have a bigger pitch than Chelsea or Norwich etc. 

Part of the lower tier would sit under the existing stands, so the amount jutting out to the pitch wouldn't be huge. Total flight of fantasy on my part, admittedly. But as well as increasing the capacity it could help make the ground more intimidating - particularly if the section below the current Holte was utilised for safe standing etc. 

[sidcow]

7 hours ago, HolteExile said:

Historically we have one of the biggest pitches in the country (at one stage, just behind Wembley, I believe). 

We could lose some of that width + length and still have a bigger pitch than Chelsea or Norwich etc. 

Part of the lower tier would sit under the existing stands, so the amount jutting out to the pitch wouldn't be huge. Total flight of fantasy on my part, admittedly. But as well as increasing the capacity it could help make the ground more intimidating - particularly if the section below the current Holte was utilised for safe standing etc. 

Nearly all pitches are the same size, indeed our pitch is exactly the same size as those wide open spaces at Wembley. Where pitches are smaller or bigger it's by a matter of inches, nothing more. 

There are minimum sizes laid down in the rules. 

[Clarry]

It makes a big difference it you pull the width in against a team with good wingers. Or vice versa if your own team has good wingers.

I’m sure clubs used to adapt their pitches to the opposition.

[VillaJ100]

2 hours ago, sidcow said:

Nearly all pitches are the same size, indeed our pitch is exactly the same size as those wide open spaces at Wembley. Where pitches are smaller or bigger it's by a matter of inches, nothing more. 

There are minimum sizes laid down in the rules. 

Yeah a lot are the same now. I think a UEFA mandated pitch to play in Europe is 115 x 74 yards maximum 

[OutByEaster?]

Even if we shrunk the pitch to dig down, we'd probably only be looking at one row of seats before we reached the minimum pitch dimensions.

You can't put the seating underneath the existing seating because of sight lines - if you lower the pitch four feet in front of the Holte End, but don't move the goal line forward, you end up with a Holte End where most people can't see the keepers legs or the goal line.

The only way we could lower the pitch to increase capacity is to knock down the North Stand and the Witton Lane, then move the pitch away from the Holte and Trinity - it's practically impossible.

 

[Talldarkandransome]

12 hours ago, HolteExile said:

Historically we have one of the biggest pitches in the country (at one stage, just behind Wembley, I believe). 

We could lose some of that width + length and still have a bigger pitch than Chelsea or Norwich etc. 

Part of the lower tier would sit under the existing stands, so the amount jutting out to the pitch wouldn't be huge. Total flight of fantasy on my part, admittedly. But as well as increasing the capacity it could help make the ground more intimidating - particularly if the section below the current Holte was utilised for safe standing etc. 

I've been told it's very important not to lose width or length 

[Sulberto21]

37 minutes ago, Talldarkandransome said:

I've been told it's very important not to lose width or length 

You know exactly what you’re doing with a post like this. ……. 

[sidcow]

2 hours ago, Talldarkandransome said:

I've been told it's very important not to lose width or length 

 

1 hour ago, Sulberto21 said:

You know exactly what you’re doing with a post like this. ……. 

 

[DaveAV1]

5 hours ago, VillaJ100 said:

Yeah a lot are the same now. I think a UEFA mandated pitch to play in Europe is 115 x 74 yards maximum 

Those European chaps are really getting down with imperial measurements now.