The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[romavillan]

On 08/03/2019 at 14:55, chrisp65 said:

Genuinely too thick to comprehend the difference, or relying on the support of people he thinks will be too thick to understand the difference?

 

 

"All penguins are birds"

"How dare you say all birds are penguins!?!?!?"

"I didn't say all birds are penguins, I said all penguins are birds"

"I DEMAND YOU APOLOGISE TO  ALL BIRDS FOR CALLING THEM PENGUINS"

 

*saw that somewhere on twitter can't find it now but made me laugh.

Edited March 9, 2019 by romavillan

[blandy]

There's a graphic in the Grauniad which shows the possibilities

[mjmooney]

[bickster]

On 07/03/2019 at 22:20, Chindie said:

I think Corbyn and Brexit is more complicated than many make it.

I really don't think there's much in the way of complexity about it.

On 07/03/2019 at 22:20, Chindie said:

He's certainly an old Eurosceptic, though coming from a different angle to the loons in the Tory party and associates. The EU increasingly was openly capitalist endeavour and as a fairly left leaning back bencher he didn't like it and it didn't really matter he didn't like it.

Yep, totally agree with that bit

On 07/03/2019 at 22:20, Chindie said:

As leader that seems to have changed. During the campaign, despite being slated for not being visible, IIRC he was one of the most active figures in Remain, making considerably more appearances than May did during her walking through the raindrops phase. 

1

Third most active if Loughborough University's figures are to be believed, though comparing his record to the invisible woman is a little pointless. David Cameron and George Osbourne between them made almost 6 times as many media appearances. For the Leader of the Opposition, whose party policy was Remain that's risible in itself but when you look a bit closer ...

... he made a total of 10 speeches and if you look at the content of those speeches, yes he talks about the EU (a bit) but he goes on and on and on about the Tories and telling people to Vote Labour. When he was talking about the EU, he was criticising them mostly He also kept telling people that the outcome wasn't the most important thing because austerity blah Tories blah, he was completely playing down the importance of the vote and towards the end we had the infamous 7/10 comment on CH4 which even I could have skirted around with aplomb and I have zero oratory skills (In fact I did it in the time he took to waffle 7/10)

Alan Johnson who was in charge of Labour's remain campaign was continually complaining that Corbyn and his office staff were "Actively undermining the party's efforts"

Corbyn even went on holiday in the middle of the campaign such was his desire to campaign for remain

Hell you even have the rumour put about by Mathew Elliot (Vote Leave) that Corbyn congratulated a prominent Labour Leaver (believed to be Kate Hoey ffs!) on the campaign they were running (but yes hardly a fact granted)

On 07/03/2019 at 22:20, Chindie said:

He's also tabled and supported efforts to try to soften Brexit in Parliament.

That's still Brexit isn't it?

On 07/03/2019 at 22:20, Chindie said:

Labour's most recent position was one the EU actually appeared to think was more useful to discuss than banging their head against May any longer.

Genuine question: Is there a link to some quotes on this as I've only seen Corbyn talk of his meeting and nothing from the other side 

On 07/03/2019 at 22:20, Chindie said:

He and the Party has felt it has had to do their own storm jive to appear to accept the referendum and also to try to minimise it's impact.

I'm not sure The Party has felt this at all. Corbyn and his acolytes maybe and a few MPs like the spineless twunt who is my MP, who might as well be a red parrot because he'll just regurgitate whatever the current policy is, as he's told. The Party as a whole does not agree.

On 07/03/2019 at 22:20, Chindie said:

Brexit might help with being elected cynically, if the Tories get left holding the can it strengthens Labour's chances, which obviously will have been considered.

Yes then when it all turns to shit, there'll be all the people who remember what he was really like on Brexit, realise he was complicit and never vote Labour again

On 07/03/2019 at 22:20, Chindie said:

So I think it's difficult to say he's an out and out Brexiteer.

It's one of the easiest things going tbh, There's 30 years plus of evidence, nothing has changed

On 07/03/2019 at 22:20, Chindie said:

I think as leader he's seen the EU is more important than he previously had bothered to know,

Not if you read any of his speeches on the matter I got this one off Labour List

Quote

When the last referendum was held in 1975, Europe was divided by the Cold War, and what later became the EU was a much smaller, purely market-driven arrangement. Over the years I have been critical of many decisions taken by the EU, and I remain critical of its shortcomings; from its lack of democratic accountability to the institutional pressure to deregulate or privatise public services.

So Europe needs to change. But that change can only come from working with our allies in the EU. It’s perfectly possible to be critical and still be convinced we need to remain a member...

 

EU membership has guaranteed working people vital employment rights, including four weeks’ paid holiday, maternity and paternity leave, protections for agency workers and health and safety in the workplace. Being in the EU has raised Britain’s environmental standards, from beaches to air quality, and protected consumers from rip-off charges.

But we also need to make the case for reform in Europe – the reform David Cameron’s Government has no interest in, but plenty of others across Europe do.

That means democratic reform to make the EU more accountable to its people. Economic reform to end to self-defeating austerity and put jobs and sustainable growth at the centre of European policy, labour market reform to strengthen and extend workers’ rights in a real social Europe. And new rights for governments and elected authorities to support public enterprise and halt the pressure to privatise services.

So the case I’m making is for ‘Remain – and Reform’ in Europe...

 

But real reform will mean making progressive alliances across the EU – something that the Conservatives will never do.

Take the crisis in the steel industry. It’s a global problem and a challenge to many European governments. So why is it only the British Government that has failed so comprehensively to act to save steel production at home?

The European Commission proposed new tariffs on Chinese steel, but it was the UK Government that blocked these co-ordinated efforts to stop Chinese steel dumping.

Those proposals are still on the table. So today I ask David Cameron and George Osborne to to start sticking up for British steel and work with our willing European partners to secure its future.

There are certainly problems about EU state aid rules, which need reform. But if as the Leave side argues, it is the EU that is the main problem, how is that Germany, Italy, France and Spain have all done so much better at protecting their steel industries?

It is because those countries have acted within EU state aid rules to support their industries; whether through taking a public stake, investing in research and development, providing loan guarantees or compensating for energy costs.

It is not the EU that is the problem, but a Conservative Government here in Britain that doesn’t recognise the strategic importance of steel, for our economy and for the jobs and skills in those communities.

The Conservative Government has blocked action on Chinese steel dumping. It has cut investment in infrastructure that would have created demand for more steel and had no procurement strategy to support British steel.

A Labour government would have worked with our partners across Europe to stand up for steel production in Britain.

The European Union – 28 countries and 520 million people – could have made us stronger, by defending our steel industries together. The actions of the Conservative Government weakened us.

The jobs being created under this Government are too often low skill, low pay and insecure jobs. If we harnessed Europe’s potential we could be doing far more to defend high skill jobs in the steel industry.

And that goes for other employers of high skilled staff too – from Airbus to Nissan – they have made it clear that their choice to invest in Britain is strengthened by our membership of the European Union.

3

They are all like that. Yes, I want to remain BUT it needs to reform because this bits rubbish, oh yes and Tories more Tories and Tories again. It was 100% a deliberate ploy to campaign to remain whilst slating the EU and the Tories. All his speeches were like this. It was just a deception that he was campaigning to remain. A lot of people listening to him would just have come away saying, why vote to stay in if it's that bad.

Sorry @Chindieyou often talk a lot of sense but this post is as I said at the time rather a load of revisionist nonsense. He hasn't changed one bit he's just getting Seamus to teach him how to lie

[Chindie]

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

I really don't think there's much in the way of complexity about it.

Evidently.

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

Yep, totally agree with that bit

Good.

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

Third most active if Loughborough University's figures are to be believed, though comparing his record to the invisible woman is a little pointless. David Cameron and George Osbourne between them made almost 6 times as many media appearances. For the Leader of the Opposition, whose party policy was Remain that's risible in itself but when you look a bit closer 

So what you're saying is, you agree he was one of the most active Remain campaigners?  He was third. Above him is the PM and the chancellor. The next highest figure is less than half of his activity. Could he have done more? Probably. But the idea he didn't really campaign for Remain doesn't stand up to snuff. It's not a moan he wasn't good enough for some.

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

 ... he made a total of 10 speeches and if you look at the content of those speeches, yes he talks about the EU (a bit) but he goes on and on and on about the Tories and telling people to Vote Labour. When he was talking about the EU, he was criticising them mostly He also kept telling people that the outcome wasn't the most important thing because austerity blah Tories blah, he was completely playing down the importance of the vote and towards the end we had the infamous 7/10 comment on CH4 which even I could have skirted around with aplomb and I have zero oratory skills (In fact I did it in the time he took to waffle 7/10)

Alan Johnson who was in charge of Labour's remain campaign was continually complaining that Corbyn and his office staff were "Actively undermining the party's efforts"

Corbyn even went on holiday in the middle of the campaign such was his desire to campaign for remain

Hell you even have the rumour put about by Mathew Elliot (Vote Leave) that Corbyn congratulated a prominent Labour Leaver (believed to be Kate Hoey ffs!) on the campaign they were running (but yes hardly a fact granted)

An opposition politician is obviously going to use any chance to throw the government under a bus. 

Most of this is complaining that Corbyn isn't a very good politician, which I wouldn't argue with. My take on the 7/10 comment was him basically being too honest (I'm not arguing he's an ardent Remained sleeping under an EU duvet) and/or trying to balance appealing across the board. The campaign was a chance after all to get his face out there, might have been the first time nanny had heard him speak, and he would want to not distance anyone from voting for him in any election that might be coming.

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

That's still Brexit isn't it?

Yes. But it's trying to minimise the impact. Add much as I would love for politicians to turn around and say 'we need to bin this whole thing off', they aren't going to. It's a career ender. I don't think an ardent Brexiteer is going to be pushing for the result to be as weak a change as possible.

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

Genuine question: Is there a link to some quotes on this as I've only seen Corbyn talk of his meeting and nothing from the other side

Barnier described the Labour position as 'interesting in content and in tone'. I'll add a link later.

Quote

The European Union's Brexit negotiator has said Theresa May should endorse a permanent customs union with the bloc - as proposed by the opposition Labour party - to break the impasse over their looming divorce.

...

"I found Corbyn's letter interesting in tone and in content," Mr Barnier said of the Labour leader's Brexit proposals, sent to Mrs May.

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

not sure The Party has felt this at all. Corbyn and his acolytes maybe and a few MPs like the spineless twunt who is my MP, who might as well be a red parrot because he'll just regurgitate whatever the current policy is, as he's told. The Party as a whole does not agree.

I seem to recall a great number of Labour figures repeating variations on 'accepting the result' before pushing ideas of 'soft' Brexit. They know they need to walk the line between pissing off either side.

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

Yes then when it all turns to shit, there'll be all the people who remember what he was really like on Brexit, realise he was complicit and never vote Labour again

Or not.

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

one of the easiest things going tbh, There's 30 years plus of evidence, nothing has changed

Well, evidently it isn't. I'm not thick, I don't even particularly like Labour as it stands, or him, and I'm questioning it.

 

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

Not if you read any of his speeches on the matter I got this one off Labour List

Quote

When the last referendum was held in 1975, Europe was divided by the Cold War, and what later became the EU was a much smaller, purely market-driven arrangement. Over the years I have been critical of many decisions taken by the EU, and I remain critical of its shortcomings; from its lack of democratic accountability to the institutional pressure to deregulate or privatise public services.

So Europe needs to change. But that change can only come from working with our allies in the EU. It’s perfectly possible to be critical and still be convinced we need to remain a member...

 

EU membership has guaranteed working people vital employment rights, including four weeks’ paid holiday, maternity and paternity leave, protections for agency workers and health and safety in the workplace. Being in the EU has raised Britain’s environmental standards, from beaches to air quality, and protected consumers from rip-off charges.

But we also need to make the case for reform in Europe – the reform David Cameron’s Government has no interest in, but plenty of others across Europe do.

That means democratic reform to make the EU more accountable to its people. Economic reform to end to self-defeating austerity and put jobs and sustainable growth at the centre of European policy, labour market reform to strengthen and extend workers’ rights in a real social Europe. And new rights for governments and elected authorities to support public enterprise and halt the pressure to privatise services.

So the case I’m making is for ‘Remain – and Reform’ in Europe...

That reads like something a lot of posters here prior to June 2016 would agree with. The EU isn't perfect, but it's done good things and we should seek to improve it from within, not walk away. Is it the best salesman pitch? No, I daresay Remain campaigns would have wanted him selling the EU like it paves the world with gold and boosts the size of your partner's bust or crotch (which might explain the Johnson criticism) but it's probably a closer viewpoint to many than it is now.

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

They are all like that. Yes, I want to remain BUT it needs to reform because this bits rubbish, oh yes and Tories more Tories and Tories again. It was 100% a deliberate ploy to campaign to remain whilst slating the EU and the Tories. All his speeches were like this. It was just a deception that he was campaigning to remain. A lot of people listening to him would just have come away saying, why vote to stay in if it's that bad.

Sorry @Chindieyou often talk a lot of sense but this post is as I said at the time rather a load of revisionist nonsense. He hasn't changed one bit he's just getting Seamus to teach him how to lie

Thanks. I disagree.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Chindie

[bickster]

Buzzfeed

Quote

A Mysterious Hard Brexit Group Run By A Young Tory Writer Is Now Britain’s Biggest Spending Political Campaign On Facebook
Tim Dawson is the only person publicly associated with Britain's Future. The group has spent almost £350,000 on Facebook since November, raising questions over the influence of "dark money" at a crucial point in the Brexit process.

In February, when she was still wrestling with her decision to quit the Conservative party, the South Cambridgeshire MP Heidi Allen was alerted by constituents to advertisements running on Facebook urging them to pressure her to change her mind about Brexit.Allen, who was one of the Tories’ most outspoken Remainers before resigning to join a new independent centrist bloc two weeks ago, was never going to be swayed by these ads, but she was nevertheless disturbed. She couldn’t figure out who was behind them. “It has similar undertones to some of the subversive Leave campaigning that we saw in the EU referendum,” Allen told BuzzFeed News.

In five months, Britain’s Future has placed more than 2,600 ads at a cost of £344,981, according to these disclosures, spending tens of thousands of pounds more than the best-resourced Remain-supporting groups and nearly twice as much as the major political parties put together. Week after week while the Brexit negotiations have approached the nail-biting endgame, Britain’s Future has been micro-targeting voters across the country to convince them to lobby specific MPs to “deliver Brexit”.

Damian Collins, chair of the Commons’ digital, culture, media and sport (DCMS) committee, told BuzzFeed News: “We need to expose these shadowy networks targeting people with dark ads. The fact that Britain’s Future can spend so much on Facebook ads and yet we know so little about them shows that Facebook’s own policies do not go far enough.”Collins pointed out that where the identity of donors is hidden, the system is open to abuse: “A campaign can easily just put up a front person without disclosing who is really behind it and why.”

Britain’s Future is identified as the advertiser in these Facebook campaigns, but users who see the ads in their feeds don’t know who its donors are and whether they are many or few.

So the question remains, said Jeffers of WhoTargetsMe: “Who’s funding this campaign? Is it a business set to benefit from this Brexit scenario? Is it people associated with the ERG? … Is it part of a foreign-backed influence campaign? It may be none of those, but without transparency into the funding, it's impossible for people to know.”

16

Apologies for the long read

Edited March 9, 2019 by blandy
snipping to shorten

[KenjiOgiwara]

On 07/03/2019 at 00:44, romavillan said:

Wow, so a do or die vote like 2 days before completely **** the country with no deal? Has no-one told them about my driving license? There's no way I can get it sorted in 2 days, this is **** Italy FFS I'd have to bribe or shoot someone to do it in 2 days!

This made me laugh so much. Italy will be Italy. Always.

[romavillan]

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/29th-march-parliament-square-march-to-leave-tickets-57650448042

No words at the moment to describe how scary that is. It should be Cable Street all over again, time to barricade the route and kick the fascists out again.

[a m ole]

17 minutes ago, romavillan said:

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/29th-march-parliament-square-march-to-leave-tickets-57650448042

No words at the moment to describe how scary that is. It should be Cable Street all over again, time to barricade the route and kick the fascists out again.

these Leave events being free to sign up to is a great source of entertainment

[peterms]

On 07/03/2019 at 23:15, blandy said:

That’s a different issue from what Catweazle wants but 1. Work cross party, as Yvette Cooper has to take no deal off the options list, to then, in the new less mad situation, do consensus majority rules actions and go for, for example, a non T.May red lined version, eg customs union, single market Brexit. That’s not my preference, but it’s an alternative that would get through and solve the border issue with Ireland. There’s loafs of options one you get May out the way.

You personalise it too much.

May tries to straddle the divisions in her party.  If she were vaporized tomorrow,  the fault lines would remain.

Similarly,  Corbyn has to ride two horses.

I see even Campbell admits you can't go for a second referendum right now.

Not all of his supporters will get that.

Edited March 9, 2019 by peterms

[blandy]

10 hours ago, peterms said:

You personalise it too much.

May tries to straddle the divisions in her party.  If she were vaporized tomorrow,  the fault lines would remain.

Similarly,  Corbyn has to ride two horses.

That’s an interesting viewpoint. It suggests that both leaders “have to” do something which is impossible and which will ultimately therefore end in failure.  The Tory fault lines aren’t going away, ever. Labour’s two horses are galloping in different directions. It is not a logical stance for either leader to take. Riding two horses in the name of party is the problem here. Leaders clinging on to strict beliefs and visions for grim life, when what is required is the removal of blinkers, less use of the whip and letting go of the reigns.

Their rigidity, their tribalism, their stubbornness are exactly the wrong qualities for the situation. Maybe I personalise it too much, though I’d say where we’ve got to gives me good reason to be critical of them.

[peterms]

16 minutes ago, blandy said:

It suggests that both leaders “have to” do something which is impossible and which will ultimately therefore end in failure.  

The party leader role is about trying to fashion enough of a consensus about divisive issues to allow things to happen.  On some issues that proves impossible, and this looks like one.  Which gets us back to the Powell remark that all political careers end in failure.

[blandy]

On 10/03/2019 at 11:07, peterms said:

The party leader role is about trying to fashion enough of a consensus about divisive issues to allow things to happen. 

Absolutely. Two main errors here, in this Brexit thing. May has absolutely not tried "consensus" it's always been control freakery from her. She decided what she wanted Brexit to be. Her Brexit. Sod any other views. In the practical actions of trying to get it she's been the opposite, too, of consensual. Her deal was rejected yonks ago, and still she's trying to get the same thing through. She's consulted no-one, really. It's been despicably lamentable.

Corbyn, too, has been awful. From "trigger article 50 immediately" (without any consensus on what kind of deal Labour wanted, or the UK wanted), to then drawing up unicorn plans, to punishing MPs who were pro remain, for voting not with the whip, to letting off pro Leave MPs who did the same. You cannot be consensual and also take sides or favour one set of views over another. He refused to be consensual with the SNP, Plaid, Green anti -tory approach about a year ago, spurning their invitation to talk. He declined initially to talk to May. He only talked when basically compelled to. The letter he wrote to May "forgot"/accidentally deleted the party consensus on a referendum.

The consensus that needs to happen is not a party one, either Labour or Tory, It's been crystal clear for ages that Brexit is not a party issue. They're both horribly split on it. A talented leader would have recognised that AND acted accordingly. To gather a consensus in parliament for a way ahead. Cooper and Letwin, other Labour/Tory "partnerships" have taken such initiatives. But neither leadership. It's monumentally woeful. You cannot get any deal through parliament, in a hung parliament by just trying to get your own, split party to agree to your version of Brexit. You have to persuade others from all across parliament. They will accept and take the votes of rebels, but they're not active in persuading and adopting shifted positions away from their own versions, to achieve success.

They're a pair of **** wits.

[ml1dch]

I've gone for a can of this as my poncy, metropolitan elite, hipster craft beer of choice to celebrate today's win:

 

 

[Davkaus]

I'm not calling all Brexit voters violent, inbred idiots. All I'm saying is, I'm pretty sure I know what that nose voted for. 

[chrisp65]

Just now, Davkaus said:

I'm not calling all Brexit voters violent, inbred idiots. All I'm saying is, I'm pretty sure I know what that nose voted for. 

woah there, are you saying all leave voters are thick inbred bluenose scum that were touched by their mum's boyfriends? 

 

[bickster]

51 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

woah there, are you saying all leave voters are thick inbred bluenose scum that were touched by their mum's boyfriends? 

 

What's Harry Enfield got to do with this?

[Chindie]

Supposedly May is considering making the vote tomorrow provisional rather than meaningful.

Her word is worth less than your cat's used litter.

[snowychap]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

Supposedly May is considering making the vote tomorrow provisional rather than meaningful.

Her word is worth less than your cat's used litter.

It's looking like a possibility:

though

 

[desensitized43]

30 minutes ago, snowychap said:

It's looking like a possibility:

If she does try any smoke and mirrors to save face Corbyn should be dusting off his VONC motion.