The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[ml1dch]

22 minutes ago, snowychap said:

It seems that the Labour leadership (snigger) has now decided to back the Cooper amendment.

Thank goodness for that. Reckon it'll still probably fail, while the utterly pointless Stoney / Spelman one will fly through.

Assuming they're selected...

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

Yep.

A lot of Eurosceptism relies on being the opponent, because they can sit and moan and whinge.

If they get any of power or control, they don't know what to do.

In Poland, the party in power are soft-Eurosceptic, but they know they can't be anti-EU because of 1) the popularity of the EU in Poland 2) The net benefits they still get 3) the net benefits they did get that has absolutely transformed Poland. The Republicans in the US are the same. 

Eurosceptism is a protest movement. It isn't possible as a governing ideology. A bit like Corbynism.

Maybe this seems nit-picky, but this isn't right.

'Euroscepticism' isn't an ideology; it is a concern about the behaviour or reality of one organisation. It isn't a protest movement; there are lots of eurosceptics who have never protested about the EU or would ever be bothered to do so. 

'Corbynism' doesn't really exist, except as a literal description of 'the thoughts in Jeremy Corbyn's head'. If you mean the Labour manifesto, it isn't an ideology but a suggestion of priorities for running the country, and nothing in it is literally impossible. Of course, people can disagree about whether anything in it is a good idea. 

Basically, euroscepticism isn't like Corbynism. 

[NurembergVillan]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

as it stands I'll cancel it , there is so much in the treaty I really don't like  , We can't  Leave on this deal and then come back and negotiate better arrangements so this deal isn't an option imo  ...  No deal isn't an option , therefore lets withdraw article 50 but agree to a 10 - 15 year timetable for our withdrawal ... of course Europe could say but we've already given you our terms we won't change them  ,  but there might also be some desire / relief all round , plus May will be gone  , Merkel will be gone and there could be a general change of attitude within the EU over this period ... There was a "flexit" approach proposed way way back , I think you can google it and find their document , it proposed a managed withdrawal of individual areas over a xx years timescale  .. less drastic than bang March 29th everything cancelled

of course the hard core Brexit people wouldn't stand for it  , but I think the more rationale ones might accept that approach ?

 

as we currently stand I think even if polls show a preference to remain and even if they held  a second referendum that remain won, I still think that it is inevitable that we leave the EU at some  point ...  not every old person is going to conveniently die , unless remain have thought of a way of lacing their voting pencils with arsenic , so I think anything that leads to remain , sees the creation of a new political party  , but whereas UKIP previously had 1MP , this new party could end up with 100 MP's and that then creates a very different political landscape ... and maybe one with a lurch further right than anybody wants

20

Cheers for that, mate.

I think I'm in agreement in terms of what to do and the likely outcomes - even domestically.

The main challenge seems to be the division of trading from politicking, but I can't see how they're divisible.  Similarly freedom of movement.  It's a key tenet (and one I support, as it goes).  The "Four Freedoms" are indivisible - at least at the moment.

We need to get our own shit together before we start pointing fingers at anybody else.

[snowychap]

British retirees in EU will lose free healthcare under no-deal Brexit

Quote

British nationals who have retired to EU countries including Spain and France will no longer have their healthcare covered by the NHS in the event of no deal, the government has said.

The confirmation will come as a blow to around 190,000 British citizens retired in the EU in the Spanish Costas, Provence in France and Tuscany in Italy, all popular with British pensioners.

It could also add to the burden on the NHS if pensioners believe they have no option but to return to the UK for treatment. The government has previously admitted it is cheaper to pay Spain and France to look after Britons’ medical bills than have them fly home.

Currently pensioners can get treatment reimbursed by the NHS under an EU-wide body of reciprocal arrangements.

“It is another example of how those advocating ‘no deal’ are playing with the lives of British citizens living in other EU countries,” said Colin Yeo, an immigration lawyer and freedom of movement campaigner. “Many of these politicians and pundits probably haven’t bothered to find out how their policies would actually affect such people.”

For many the alternative may be to return to the UK, something the government has said in the past will cost the British taxpayer more in NHS expenditure because of the savings in cheaper health systems around Europe.

Pensioners who have paid in to the national insurance system for the qualifying number of years currently benefit from the “S1” reciprocal healthcare rules if they retire in the EU, EEA countries or Switzerland.

An S1 certificate is available to anyone in receipt of a state pension, and to some workers who are sent abroad on a temporary basis by their UK employers.

The government stated in a little-publicised no-deal technical notice published this week: “An S1 certificate helps you and your dependents access healthcare in the EU/EEA country where you live. If you have an S1 certificate, it will be valid until 29 March 2019. “After this date, the certificate may not be valid, depending on decisions by member states.”

The government’s “overseas healthcare” phoneline has updated its pre-recorded messages to include a no-deal warning, telling those who are considering moving to another country within the EEA or Switzerland that their S1 application will only be processed if they apply “in the next four weeks”.

The government says it is seeking bilateral deals with other EU countries on the continuation of healthcare but so far none have been arranged.

The technical notice advises retirees to investigate taking up private healthcare in the country they now reside, something that is likely to be come as shock to pensioners, especially in the Costa del Sol in Spain, where many have retired in order to make ends meet.

One 83-year-old pensioner in Spain, concerned that his healthcare was put at risk by the referendum, has said previously: “It is the skint ones who are at risk”.

The government has suggested worried pensioners research the state healthcare system in thecountry they now live and find out if they are eligible for treatment. But it warned that British citizens may not be able to get free treatment unless they have paid social security contributions.

The government has admitted that treating British citizens in Spain is cheaper than having them return to the UK.

There are 70,000 British pensioners in Spain, with another 44,000 in Ireland, 43,000 in France and 12,000 in Cyprus.

A senior civil servant in the Department of Health told a select committee in 2017 that “one of the advantages of the current arrangements was that it was cheaper for the government to reimburse Spain for treatment of pensioners there than have them return to the NHS for care”.

Spain charges an average of €3,500 per pensioner signed up to the S1, Ireland charges an average of €7,500 and the UK charges about €5,000, he said.

In total, the government paid out around £500m – or £2,300 per pensioner – which he pointed out “was significantly lower than the cost of treating pensioners in the UK”.

Wouldn't they have to pass the habitual residence test in order to access non urgent treatment after any return, too?

So they wouldn't just be able to rock back up in the UK and get free treatment from day 1.

[tonyh29]

8 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

Similarly freedom of movement.  It's a key tenet (and one I support, as it goes).  The "Four Freedoms" are indivisible - at least at the moment.

yeah , it was a key part of the BBC prog yesterday  .. but equally I always got the impression it more driven by Merkel than anyone else  , hence why I wonder if her removal from the equation might help relax this problem

You've got  immigration as one of the key concerns in quite  a few EU countries , it would be ironic if we left the EU because of it only for the EU to remove it 10 years later (not saying they would just thinking hypothetically)

[HanoiVillan]

22 minutes ago, snowychap said:

British retirees in EU will lose free healthcare under no-deal Brexit

Wouldn't they have to pass the habitual residence test in order to access non urgent treatment after any return, too?

So they wouldn't just be able to rock back up in the UK and get free treatment from day 1.

Surely the habitual residence test would have to contain waivers or exemptions for people in this situation? It hardly seems tenable to turn large numbers of British citizens away from hospitals; one imagines the media would be covering that fairly unfavourably. 

Certainly a giant mess though, and yet another indication that we can't simply bluff through a 'no deal'. 

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said:

Surely the habitual residence test would have to contain waivers or exemptions for people in this situation? It hardly seems tenable to turn large numbers of British citizens away from hospitals; one imagines the media would be covering that fairly unfavourably.

It would be a remarkable outcome of a decision to leave the EU if a future government were effectively to promote the idea of health tourism because of it.

[Chindie]

The never ending parade of stupidity at Westminster is astounding.

Dowling Street is telling everyone to reject the Cooper amendment never the EU won't agree to an extension. But then in the next sentence tells everyone they they're going to ask the EU to renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement. Which they've said ain't happening without red lines moving. And it took 18 months to get to in the first place. There's 2 months left.

How is this government not being thrown out on its arse? It's **** ridiculous.

[NurembergVillan]

19 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Surely the habitual residence test would have to contain waivers or exemptions for people in this situation? It hardly seems tenable to turn large numbers of British citizens away from hospitals; one imagines the media would be covering that fairly unfavourably. 

 

I was in a difficult spot when I moved back to the UK, both from Holland and from Canada.

Car insurance, bank accounts - everything was based on the premise that I had been a British citizen since birth.  If was to tell them I'd been away for a few years I was, in many cases, an immigrant.

For healthcare such as a GP I had to re-register using a local address which I had to prove was mine.  Popping home for visits, a GP appointment wasn't possible.

[NurembergVillan]

26 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

yeah , it was a key part of the BBC prog yesterday  .. but equally I always got the impression it more driven by Merkel than anyone else  , hence why I wonder if her removal from the equation might help relax this problem

You've got  immigration as one of the key concerns in quite  a few EU countries , it would be ironic if we left the EU because of it only for the EU to remove it 10 years later (not saying they would just thinking hypothetically)

If we were implementing the EU rules rather than a laxer bespoke version of them and it was still an issue then we'd have to look at how to manage it.

Right now we're (press and MPs) saying it's the EU's fault when we know that's not the case.

[Davkaus]

53 minutes ago, snowychap said:

British retirees in EU will lose free healthcare under no-deal Brexit

Wouldn't they have to pass the habitual residence test in order to access non urgent treatment after any return, too?

So they wouldn't just be able to rock back up in the UK and get free treatment from day 1.

A nice extra kick in the teeth after being denied their vote. 

[snowychap]

3 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

A nice extra kick in the teeth after being denied their vote. 

To be fair, as pensioners, a good percentage of them would likely be false ones.

Edited January 29, 2019 by snowychap
fair - good

[Chindie]

I genuinely hate May.

Not just in the tacit 'she's a Tory' kind of way. It's a hate in the way that takes that basic Tory hate level, but throws in every bit of hatred for disingenuous words removed, liars, self serving **** and nasty weaselly bastards I have. And a special added bit of outright disdain. A really hateful piece of work, coupled to just enough incompetence to be irritating in it's own right.

[peterms]

 

Sabine Weyand explains that the UK government's suggestion of reopening negotiations is a non-starter.

Mrs May says "I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you pesky kids".

[snowychap]

Regardless of how poor May is and how much of a mess she finds herself in, she has the permanent 'backstop' of being followed by Corbyn who is just as poor and in pretty much the same mess.

[snowychap]

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

45 minutes ago, peterms said:

 

Sabine Weyand explains that the UK government's suggestion of reopening negotiations is a non-starter.

Mrs May says "I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you pesky kids".

[StefanAVFC]

Those pesky blood donation centres indulging in project fear as well. I always knew they were in cahoots with supermarkets, Airbus etc

[ml1dch]

 

Official confirmation of the above.

This is all fine. This is all normal.

[villakram]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

Regardless of how poor May is and how much of a mess she finds herself in, she has the permanent 'backstop' of being followed by Corbyn who is just as poor and in pretty much the same mess.

How do you know that Corbyn is poor? Opposition in British politics is a particularly shitty position to be in. Wanting out of Brexit and pinning blame on Corbyn refuses to acknowledge the political realities of the Labor party and the British electorate.