The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[snowychap]

48 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

The Twitter bloke  has written “introduction of martial law after a No deal Brexit” 

Imagine the reaction if leave had written such blatant scaremongering and deliberately mislead people

Imagine the reaction if Roland Smith (aka 'The Twitter bloke') was someone who had written in favour of leaving the EU.

Imagine the reaction if Roland Smith (aka 'The Twitter bloke) had, say, voted to leave the EU.

Edited January 27, 2019 by snowychap

[tonyh29]

36 minutes ago, peterms said:

Of course all governments have contingency plans for dealing with rioting and civil unrest.  (In the case of France, it seems to involved aiming weapons at the faces of protesters, blinding some of them).

Surely the point is not the existence of such plans, but the deliberate pursuit of policies which knowingly make it likely that serious civil unrest will happen in the first place?

Agree in part , but personally I don’t think no deal would see civil unrest .. not to mention i don’t think we will see A No deal anyway 

[bickster]

3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Agree in part , but personally I don’t think no deal would see civil unrest .. not to mention i don’t think we will see A No deal anyway 

I think any outcome risks it from here on in. 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

The Twitter bloke  has written “introduction of martial law after a No deal Brexit” 

Imagine the reaction if leave had written such blatant scaremongering and deliberately mislead people

Operation Temperer has been in existence for many years and also  has a contingency for Brexit , a contingency that if they didn’t have you’d all be posting about how unprepared the government are 

having a plan for it does not make something inevitable 

If you believe we are heading for martial law then I have some magic beans I can sell you that will protect you from it , just PM me in crayon.

I agree with the gist of this post. There's definitely a bunch of May instigated stuff, from the Queen's intervention, to some of the warnings about no deal that various people are making - it's co-ordinated. There's also some non-co-ordinated, genuine stuff being said that's more or totally based on the concern of businesses and others.

On the point about "Imagine the reaction if leave had written such blatant scaremongering and deliberately mislead people" I don't agree. Leave has lied blatantly and co-ordinatedly from the start, and not nearly enough has been made of it. There's the odd exposing of the gibberish gone on, but largely it's been allowed to stand (as this May nonsense has, as you say).

[tonyh29]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

I agree with the gist of this post. There's definitely a bunch of May instigated stuff, from the Queen's intervention, to some of the warnings about no deal that various people are making - it's co-ordinated. There's also some non-co-ordinated, genuine stuff being said that's more or totally based on the concern of businesses and others.

On the point about "Imagine the reaction if leave had written such blatant scaremongering and deliberately mislead people" I don't agree. Leave has lied blatantly and co-ordinatedly from the start, and not nearly enough has been made of it. There's the odd exposing of the gibberish gone on, but largely it's been allowed to stand (as this May nonsense has, as you say).

To be clear I wasn’t suggesting  that leave hasn’t lied etc more the reaction and scrutiny that their misrepresentations receive compared to this misrepresentation 

[HanoiVillan]

Further to the Tim Martin stuff, here are staff being denied bonuses for not displaying his Brexit propaganda:

 

[Chindie]

Edit - There genuinely could be merit in this.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Chindie

[Chindie]

Quote

A no-deal Brexit threatens the UK's food security and will lead to higher prices and empty shelves in the short-term, retailers are warning.

Sainsbury's, Asda and McDonald's are among those warning stockpiling fresh food is impossible and that the UK is very reliant on the EU for produce.

The warning comes in a letter from the British Retail Consortium and is signed by several of the major food retailers.

It comes ahead of crucial votes in Parliament on Tuesday.

The letter from the retailers, and seen by the BBC, says there will be "significant risks" to maintaining the choice, quality and shelf life of food.

"We are extremely concerned that our customers will be among the first to experience the realities of a no deal Brexit," the letter says.

The Beeb

Ah, remember those heady days of adequate food...

A country that shit itself when KFC ran out of chicken, faced with everywhere potentially running out of shitloads of stuff... What could possibly go wrong?!

At what point does 'Project Fear' become 'Project Stark Reality'? And at what point can we start chucking people going on about Project Fear in the sea?

[Stevo985]

6 minutes ago, Chindie said:

The Beeb

Ah, remember those heady days of adequate food...

A country that shit itself when KFC ran out of chicken, faced with everywhere potentially running out of shitloads of stuff... What could possibly go wrong?!

At what point does 'Project Fear' become 'Project Stark Reality'? And at what point can we start chucking people going on about Project Fear in the sea?

Probably at some point in April.

Of course it will be the EU's fault. Or the government's fault. Or the Remainers fault, somehow.

It will never be because leaving the EU was a shit decision.

[NurembergVillan]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

The Beeb

Ah, remember those heady days of adequate food...

A country that shit itself when KFC ran out of chicken, faced with everywhere potentially running out of shitloads of stuff... What could possibly go wrong?!

At what point does 'Project Fear' become 'Project Stark Reality'? And at what point can we start chucking people going on about Project Fear in the sea?

 

Never mind that, we'll be eating the ****!

[ml1dch]

32 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

Never mind that, we'll be eating the ****!

Soylent Green was set in 2022. 

Just saying.

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

The Beeb

Ah, remember those heady days of adequate food...

A country that shit itself when KFC ran out of chicken, faced with everywhere potentially running out of shitloads of stuff... What could possibly go wrong?!

At what point does 'Project Fear' become 'Project Stark Reality'? And at what point can we start chucking people going on about Project Fear in the sea?

This tweet applies:

 

[bickster]

Coin toss for which thread this should go in but UKIps are putting this through peoples doors in Sussex

[Chindie]

Nice life you got there.

Be a shame if something happened to it.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Coin toss for which thread this should go in but UKIps are putting this through peoples doors in Sussex

They're **** barmy. What a bunch of utter twunts.

[snowychap]

I see the official Labour party position is apparently to abstain on the second reading of the Immigration Bill.

And also not to support Cooper's amendment tomorrow.

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, blandy said:

They're **** barmy. What a bunch of utter twunts.

It has to be borderline threatening behaviour or incitement at the very least

[mjmooney]

Quote

A.A. Gill writing about Brexit in the Times before his death in Dec 2016:

“It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”
It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”
Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.
The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty
We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”
Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.
Nine out of 10 economists say ‘remain in the EU’
You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
No time for walls: the best of Europe, from its music and food to IM Pei’s pyramid at the Louvre, depends on an easy collision of cultures
There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.”

Not the original Times link, but quoted by some bloke on FB

[chrisp65]

3 hours ago, bickster said:

Coin toss for which thread this should go in but UKIps are putting this through peoples doors in Sussex

if a national newspaper can show specific individuals and name them enemies of the state, then unfortunately, thick racist scum like UKIP are allowed to make more generalised right wing threats

meanwhile BBC TV news just runs vox pops of people saying they think it will all probably be fine, apparently that counts as necessary balance against experts saying there's a small but genuine risk that it won't be

[snowychap]

2 hours ago, snowychap said:

I see the official Labour party position is apparently to abstain on the second reading of the Immigration Bill.

And also not to support Cooper's amendment tomorrow.

They appear to have changed from abstaiing to a one line whip on voting against (which I think basically means that they don't give much of a shit as to what their MPs do or even if they don't bother to turn up).