RimmyJimmer Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 1 hour ago, wazzap24 said: What’s a load of old toss. People on here are more than prepared to listen to a decent argument and have a respectful debate. No they're not, absolutely not, that was my point. Tony has touched on it...many people initially argued their case but gave up in the face of ridiculous accusations and name calling. A well known poster on here thanked me personally for ruining the lives of 2 of his employees who he was going to have to lay off because of my ignorance. Respectful debate on here?...not a chance. I will have a debate face to face with someone no problem, then at least you have a choice when someone is rude or abusive to you....either turn away and ignore them or smack them in the mush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, RimmyJimmer said: No they're not, absolutely not, that was my point. Tony has touched on it...many people initially argued their case but gave up in the face of ridiculous accusations and name calling. A well known poster on here thanked me personally for ruining the lives of 2 of his employees who he was going to have to lay off because of my ignorance. Respectful debate on here?...not a chance. I will have a debate face to face with someone no problem, then at least you have a choice when someone is rude or abusive to you....either turn away and ignore them or smack them in the mush I don’t think that’s right, but fair enough. We all get a little bit overheated and passionate at times, but if you came on here with some genuine points, backed up with a few facts, you’d get a fair crack and a decent debate from most IMO. I would honestly listen/read what you have to say. I genuinely want people to throw some positive light on this s**tshow. I don’t mind being told to get over the result and get on with it, I just want to know what ‘it’ I need to be getting on with. Party politics aside, I think we all need to know that and before we actually leave would nice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 24, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 24, 2017 27 minutes ago, RimmyJimmer said: No they're not, absolutely not, that was my point. Tony has touched on it...many people initially argued their case but gave up in the face of ridiculous accusations and name calling. A well known poster on here thanked me personally for ruining the lives of 2 of his employees who he was going to have to lay off because of my ignorance. Respectful debate on here?...not a chance. I will have a debate face to face with someone no problem, then at least you have a choice when someone is rude or abusive to you....either turn away and ignore them or smack them in the mush When did abuse get a new definition? Is this in the first draft of post-Brexit Bills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, RimmyJimmer said: Respectful debate on here?...not a chance. I think you have this all wrong mate. This is a particularly emotive topic because it is going to have a huge impact on peoples lives, both now and future generations, and people on one side of the fence believe it will be a very negative one. I think for the most part though people on VT are respectful to other peoples opinions so long as you are putting up a coherent argument. On this thread I guess those who voted leave do appear to be in the minority much like on VT I think those with right wing leanings are also in the minority and possibly feel like they are swimming against the tide in many of the politics threads. I know how that feels and how frustrating that can be as I swim against the tide as a large percentage of people I know were leavers and much of the right wing media is constantly throwing Brexit propaganda around. You just have to put your opinion across as best you can as to why you think it is better to be leaving, what major positives you can already see and why you think we will be better off out. I think 99% of posters on here would welcome that but those kind of posts are in very short supply. I know as someone very worried about us leaving, and the negative impact I think it is already having, I would love to see some genuine positives presented beyond the crap in the right wing rags and from the likes of Farage, and more worryingly our own PM, hailing the change in the colour of my passport. Edited December 24, 2017 by markavfc40 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 21 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Have you had a change of opinion on this? Or are you simply talking about the need to maintain a public perception of there being no difference so as not to scare the horses? The other godsend for the tories, in their eyes, is Jeremy Corbyn. As popular as he is with his supporters he comes with baggage. That baggage appears to have two consequences. Firstly there's an easy hit for the nasty right wing media to plant the idea and remind their public that he's a dangerous man, that he'll have the lights off and the strikers out and the army decommissioned on week one of a Corbyn government. Secondly, he also has that same impact on the tory party. OK they don't like each other, but they know they dislike the idea of a Corbyn government even less. Which is interesting in its own way. In that, the common ground is Brexit. So there's surely little ground to be gained there. The differential is on the NHS and taxing the rich and helping the homeless and sticking it to the man. So why are we not seeing campaigns on these issues from Labour? Instead we are getting word games about how different a brexit would be under Labour. it would be a brexit for jobs, apparently. I have no idea what that would mean. I know what a penny on tax for the NHS means. I know what building 500,000 council homes means. I know what stopping the pensions rip offs means for steel workers and toys r us workers and bhs workers. But none of the Labour accounts I follow ever ever mention these things. It's got to the point in the last 6 months where local Labour councillors (I appreciate there's little they can influence) just tweet photos of the beach and positive reviews of nice lunches they've had in local coffee shops. There appears to be an absolutely massive disconnect still with a lot of the Labour party. In so many ways, very similar to the splintered tory party. Where the tories appear only to be together to stop labour getting in, and labour are only together as they've realised there's a popularity behind Corbyn that means there's a set of circumstances where he could get in. At one of the most critical times for us in modern history, I do think we have a particularly poor set of politicians on all sides. It's for a different thread but although I think you're normally bang on with everything I think you're wide of the mark with pretty much everything you've said there. But it's got 5 likes and I got none so I'm clearly full of shit. Anyway, Merry Christmas. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 22 minutes ago, darrenm said: It's for a different thread but although I think you're normally bang on with everything I think you're wide of the mark with pretty much everything you've said there. But it's got 5 likes and I got none so I'm clearly full of shit. Anyway, Merry Christmas. ignore the likes buddy, leave got more likes in the referendum and that's an absolute shit show have a good one 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 17 hours ago, bickster said: Respectful debate on here?...not a chance. With all due respect I think you are wrong there, where else if not here ? The pub, BBC forums or somewhere else ? It's not perfect but better than almost anywhere else IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 25, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 25, 2017 18 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: With all due respect I think you are wrong there, where else if not here ? The pub, BBC forums or somewhere else ? It's not perfect but better than almost anywhere else IMO. Methinks you quoted the wrong person, though I concur 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 1 hour ago, bickster said: Methinks you quoted the wrong person, though I concur Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post peterms Posted December 25, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted December 25, 2017 21 hours ago, markavfc40 said: This is a particularly emotive topic because it is going to have a huge impact on peoples lives, both now and future generations, and people on one side of the fence believe it will be a very negative one. Part of the reason why it's emotive is the way the debate has been conducted at a national level. There have been lies, evasions, and a direct refusal to identify and make public the economic consequences of a decision. There has been bullying of MPs and judges in the national press. There is a concerted effort to deny any possible change of mind because that would be "undemocratic". So we seem locked on a path chosen without clarity on what was the proposition or what it would entail, with facts and reason pushed aside by emotion and deceit. In that context, the discussion on here looks rather less emotional than the world outside, for the most part. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 25, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted December 25, 2017 On 12/24/2017 at 12:36, tonyh29 said: Whilst that’s a reasonable and fair comment has anyone in the history of VT ever changed their view in a political thread ? I have a few times. Awol persuaded me on something to do with the ECJ and whether it should have any post Brexit role, being the most recent example. On 12/23/2017 at 21:46, darrenm said: ...Therefore, the more the focus is kept on brexit and away from health, social issues, housing, homelessness, schools, etc, the happier the Tories are and the less people see any difference between the 2. Without brexit, Tories would be skewered with their record, but for leavers and remainers, leaving or remaining has become the only issue they're prepared to pay attention to. Possibly true, but there's something else, isn't there? There's not actually much else going on - there's so much ministerial and party and diplomatic effort going on in trying to deal with the monumental complication of Brexit, that little else is getting done. So it's not like people aren't aware of hospital or travel problems or whatever, but as nothing is basically being done about them, then there's not much "news" on them - they're the same mess they were before all this brexit stuff. In a way, therefore, while Brexit may be taking the bulk of attention, the festering problems of everything else will do for the tories (if Labour can get itself sorted out - as @chrisp65 has pointed out above). The tories mess everything up, so it'll come back to bite them massive style. It's also interesting that there's no really any party representing the people who want to remain in the EU. The people who voted leave for sort of skim-read reasons - immigration, passports, unelected bureaucrats, "take back control" they're getting fed soundbites and "skim-read solutions" - nothing actually meaningful, but to sounds good to them. The people who voted leave having looked in detail and reached a decision - they're not getting anything much from the "progress" to date and the people who voted remain are getting zilch, as no one is making a political party case to look at the way things are and have gone and get a grip. As we've seen the tories have barely discussed what they want from Brexit, Labour is tarting about just trying to use soundbites because the leadership and the MPs have a different outlook (to put it mildly). It's just a massive clusterpork. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 25, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted December 25, 2017 On 12/24/2017 at 14:47, chrisp65 said: I think that in the early days of this thread I said I could be persuaded either way. I was probably more minded to stay but was equally happy to listen to arguments for leaving. I voted remain. I strongly believe that the economics are still with remain. But I do believe there is a strong ideological case against the EU. It's too strong in some areas and whilst it claims democracy, there's an awful lot of unaccountable power. I think the EU's desire to become a super state with an army is a bad thing. Too many untouchable sneering suits at the top to be given an army. Yet, whilst craving an army they can call their own, cyber security, food self sufficiency, fuel security and citizens welfare don't appear to be quite so important? A military power short of food and fuel, unprotected borders and the people in the border states sacrificed to protect the new deutsche mark. That's a strategy masterclass right there. If the referendum was re run I'd now struggle to vote. I don't like the direction the EU is heading in politically, but I'm scared of the economic plan the tories have for us. So, I was a remain voter. I'd probably currently not vote in a re run. There's more to life than money, which is just as well, because the tory plan looks a lot like a race to the uninsured no safety net no pension no health service bottom for the majority of us. The alternative appears to be an unaccountable grey suited group of people in Brussels making sure all grey suits have the same number of buttons. That's quite similar to my take, with the exception that I wasn't really wanting to vote remain, though I did through gritted teeth (due to it being a vote of "support" for Cameron and Osborne etc.). If it was run again, I'd vote remain with more enthusiasm, in part because there's more information about the consequences emerged since the first vote. I'd kind of settle for a Norway type version of not being in the EU formally, but being able to trade and travel and all that, and if it wasn't for the T.May red line nonsense, that's probably where we'd end up. I think the EU would be happy with that, too. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted December 25, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 25, 2017 Photoshop challenge. Try to not get banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 17 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said: Photoshop challenge. Try to not get banned. Where's my effing K? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 12 hours ago, NurembergVillan said: Photoshop challenge. Try to not get banned. I always thought he was the sort that would drink his own piss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted December 26, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 26, 2017 It's the season of joy and light, but that doesn't mean I haven't got some spare shade for this helmet. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 26, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 26, 2017 How come the news is on the top TV today? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted December 27, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted December 27, 2017 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 Adonis resigns Quote ... The European Union Withdrawal Bill is the worst legislation of my lifetime. It arrives soon in the House of Lords and I feel duty bound to oppose it relentlessly from the Labour benches. Brexit is a populist and nationalist spasm worthy of Donald Trump. After the narrow referendum vote, a form of associate membership of the EU might have been attempted without rupturing Britain's key trading and political alliances. Instead, by allying with UKIP and the Tory hard right to wrench Britain out of the key economic and political institutions of modern Europe, you are pursuing a course fraught with danger. Even within Ireland, there are set to be barriers between people and trade. If Brexit happens, taking us back into Europe will become the mission of our children's generation, who will marvel at your acts of destruction. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 That should be the end of Chris Grayling too. Some very interesting claims in Adonis' letter about evidence he'll need to give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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