The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[markavfc40]

7 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

 

if you believe gullibility was only invented by the Tory party circa 2010 then I’ve bad news for you 

 

 

I never said I did but just for the record I don't. They are though unfortunately the Government at present and are clearly taking advantage of some very gullible people regardng the issue I was adressing in response to a post where you said the current government is taking advantage of an easy win.

[tonyh29]

21 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I'm sure you were in the Labour thread a few weeks ago, having a moan at people bringing up the Tories whenever people criticise Labour...

Not strictly accurate ...fairly sure it was around October time so shouldn’t be hard to check 

[markavfc40]

In fairness I don't think this thread should get bogged down in this passport bollocks. I have allowed the PM and the likes of loony tune Farage, the far right of the Tory party and a few of the right wing rags and posts on social media drag me in to a debate about something that very few of the general public care one iota about.

Meaningless distractions like this just take the emphasis and focus off the major issues we face as a country post leaving the EU. 

[RimmyJimmer]

15 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

It is amusing how there are rarely comments made by brexiteers in this thread making positive  comments about the apparent positives of leaving the EU. 

Rather only tediously defending their side's buffoonery. 

Why enter into any sort of worthwhile debate when you have already been judged? 

What is tedious is having to listen to the constant name calling and sneering, especially on here, and usually by supposedly intellectually superior, morally superior, all accepting, super humans.

Oh, and I dont give the first **** about the colour of my passport and never have.

[ml1dch]

38 minutes ago, RimmyJimmer said:

Why enter into any sort of worthwhile debate when you have already been judged? 

Surely if you want this to work then you're going to have to bring more people round to your way of thinking. 

Until you can show that this is actually going to benefit people, the numbers will continue to grow with the aim to prevent or reverse it. I'm not a closed book, give me a cogent, coherent reason to get behind this and I'm on board. 

So to answer your question - because if you don't, you won't get what you want.

[tonyh29]

1 minute ago, ml1dch said:

Surely if you want this to work then you're going to have to bring more people round to your way of thinking. 

Until you can show that this is actually going to benefit people, the numbers will continue to grow with the aim to prevent or reverse it. I'm not a closed book, give me a cogent, coherent reason to get behind this and I'm on board. 

So to answer your question - because if you don't, you won't get what you want.

Whilst that’s a reasonable and fair comment

has anyone in the history of VT ever changed their view in a political thread ? 

[wazzap24]

53 minutes ago, RimmyJimmer said:

Why enter into any sort of worthwhile debate when you have already been judged? 

What is tedious is having to listen to the constant name calling and sneering, especially on here, and usually by supposedly intellectually superior, morally superior, all accepting, super humans.

Oh, and I dont give the first **** about the colour of my passport and never have.

What’s a load of old toss. 

People on here are more than prepared to listen to a decent argument and have a respectful debate. So go for it, give some genuine, tangible reasons why brexit will be a good thing. What’s going to get better? What are we actually doing it for and how are our lives going to be enriched? What are you most looking forward to about it?

[ml1dch]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Whilst that’s a reasonable and fair comment

has anyone in the history of VT ever changed their view in a political thread ? 

Not really a question I can answer. I was just giving him an answer about why he might have a bit of self-interest in stating his case.

[wazzap24]

7 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

has anyone in the history of VT ever changed their view in a political thread ? 

That isn’t a reason not to try. 

Whether in the Main forum or off topic, people often defend a minority position, be it an opinion about a player, the manager, the owner, what beer to drink, porn to watch (ok just Rob and maybe Ruge on that one), good films, bad music - you name it. 

It’s hard not to think people actually haven’t got any decent points to make when it doesn’t seem to hold them back in other threads?

[tonyh29]

2 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Not really a question I can answer. I was just giving him an answer about why he might have a bit of self-interest in stating his case.

Thing is people tried very early in this thread to make a case , all we got met with was bendy banana and little Britain type jibes 

I think most people came to the conclusion it wasn’t worth it .... some of those posters have left the topic , even the site as the “abuse” just didn’t seem worth it ... 

I dip my toe in the thread now and again and have a read and a little bit of trivial engagement , but as I said I don’t honestly believe I’m going to convince anyone so I kinda just disagree with people as and when ( planes for example  ) 

its a lose lose situation , anything bad happens in the economy is going to get blamed on a brexit , anything good is going to get ignored ( manufacturing output was up again, ( highest since 1998 ? ) but not reported anywhere ... arguably it’s the weak pound , but it’s not the sole reason )

Brexit situation changes daily arguably you can only really judge it in years to come ,  at present there is just lots of headlines of what if , Ireland might prove to be a cluster **** , equally it might not , we might get American chlorinated chicken we might not ... and so on  

 

[tonyh29]

12 minutes ago, wazzap24 said:

That isn’t a reason not to try. 

Whether in the Main forum or off topic, people often defend a minority position, be it an opinion about a player, the manager, the owner, what beer to drink, porn to watch (ok just Rob and maybe Ruge on that one), good films, bad music - you name it. 

It’s hard not to think people actually haven’t got any decent points to make when it doesn’t seem to hold them back in other threads?

I was writing another post as you wrote this ... I guess I’ve answered some of your points in that other post , rather than repeating myself 

but to use your example I guess The Bruce thread is a good example.. I ventured in there made a few points and got branded fickle by a couple of posters , agreed with by a few others ... ultimately I didnt convince the fickle accusers so there comes a point when I decide to not attempt trying 

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, RimmyJimmer said:

Oh, and I dont give the first **** about the colour of my passport and never have.

But it is the first, real, tangible victory since the referendum and something we should celebrate.

Edited December 24, 2017 by snowychap

[snowychap]

17 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

arguably it’s the weak pound , but it’s not the sole reason

What are the other reasons?

[mjmooney]

TBH, my biggest problem with the whole business was the referendum. All the main political parties had an overwhelming majority in favour of staying in. Apart from UKIP and a handful of Tories, no politician seriously considered leaving as an option. Had a significant change occurred in the political concensus, there could have been a measured investigation and assessment by the economic experts, and - if necessary - a general election held, with a possible 'leave' policy in the manifesto of one (or, just possibly, both) of the major parties (I doubt the LibDems would ever get on board). If that happened, whatever the outcome, I would at least accept the validity of the process, and live with the outcome. 

But the tabloid-fuelled, ignorance infested, populist farce we actually got was simply wrong in every way. It signified a shameful abrogation of responsibility by this country's political classes. It was held up as a triumph of democracy, but it was in fact the very opposite - a dumbing down of the political process, policy selection hy Twitter. 

That's what makes me so angry, not the simple fact of leaving the EU. 

Edited December 24, 2017 by mjmooney

[snowychap]

41 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

has anyone in the history of VT ever changed their view in a political thread ? 

Yes.

Or at least, I've seen people acknowledge that they hadn't seen something from the same angle that someone else had and that may have changed what they think. Perhaps, also, people have taken away what they have read and used it to inform the views that they decide upon.

Edited December 24, 2017 by snowychap

[wazzap24]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

I was writing another post as you wrote this ... I guess I’ve answered some of your points in that other post , rather than repeating myself 

but to use your example I guess The Bruce thread is a good example.. I ventured in there made a few points and got branded fickle by a couple of posters , agreed with by a few others ... ultimately I didnt convince the fickle accusers so there comes a point when I decide to not attempt trying 

Fair do’s Tony, I can appreciate it feels a bit pointless at times. 

Id like to hear some decent arguments though, mainly because well, it’s actually going to happen (definitely, maybe) and I’m starting to actually worry. 

It’s not just ‘2/3 idiots’ picked out by the BBC for people to laugh at, there does seem to be a huge amount of ignorance on the issue from the Brexit supporters and not a lot of actual plans/supporting evidence for future success. But yay, sovereignty, whatever that actually means. 

I don’t think there’s many decent arguments being made because I genuinely don’t think people have the facts to make a case. I don’t think brexit voters are stupid in the sense of being book clever or their level of education, but I do believe a lot (not all) of them are being deliberately and wilfully ignorant. 

I also don’t think there’s a common argument, because there was no common reason amongst leave voters. Some were protest votes against the government, some (a lot) were racially motivated, others down to localised economic factors, some down to an outdated view of a Britain that probably never existed in the first place. 

You talk about abuse, but equally I’m seeing the same been fired at remainers (not VT, The wider inter web thingy) for literally just asking what the plan is. 

Anyway, Merry Xmas ya filthy animal  

 

[Chindie]

The simple fact of the matter is every Leave argument must be argued against the economic impact, regardless of your thoughts on the international economic system. It's an inescapable practical fact, and exceptionally few stand against the economic impact for most people. And unless you're prepared to accept hardship for points of principle, either because it won't affect you or your one of the very small group that will benefit from it, most people will be negatively impacted by the decision.

So in the cold light of day, the decision to Leave will ultimately prove to be an exceptionally stupid decision. Unfortunately not enough realise it or are too bloody minded to see it.

[markavfc40]

56 minutes ago, wazzap24 said:

 

I also don’t think there’s a common argument, because there was no common reason amongst leave voters. Some were protest votes against the government, some (a lot) were racially motivated, others down to localised economic factors, some down to an outdated view of a Britain that probably never existed in the first place. 

 

I think all of those reasons are valid but my biggest issue is that as you say a lot of them were racially motivated. I wouldn't go anywhere close to saying most did but I'd imagine it would be around 20% voted leave based on racist/xenophobic views and many of those were in relation to stopping Pakis/Syrians/brown people/Muslims coming over here. Basically non EU immigration which we already have control over. That makes those who voted for that reason both racist and ignorant.

Even if I am way wide of the mark and say only 10% voted to leave due to xenophobic reasons given that the vote was so close, a 2% swing and it would have been a vote for remain, then I hate the fact that the likes of supporters of Britain First have had a defining say on my children's future based on real nasty, evil reasons.

Many won't agree with those who voted remain but I don't think you could make an argument that any of them did so for abhorrent, nasty reasons like a fair proportion of those who voted leave did.

Edited December 24, 2017 by markavfc40

[bickster]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

Whilst that’s a reasonable and fair comment

has anyone in the history of VT ever changed their view in a political thread ? 

I'm sure there are many who've actually read the opinions on both sides and formed their own opinion. There are plenty of people who lurk topics. It's not just about what's written, it's about what's read

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

Whilst that’s a reasonable and fair comment

has anyone in the history of VT ever changed their view in a political thread ? 

I think that in the early days of this thread I said I could be persuaded either way. I was probably more minded to stay but was equally happy to listen to arguments for leaving.

I voted remain. I strongly believe that the economics are still with remain. But I do believe there is a strong ideological case against the EU. It's too strong in some areas and whilst it claims democracy, there's an awful lot of unaccountable power. I think the EU's desire to become a super state with an army is a bad thing. Too many untouchable sneering suits at the top to be given an army. Yet, whilst craving an army they can call their own, cyber security, food self sufficiency, fuel security and citizens welfare don't appear to be quite so important? A military power short of food and fuel, unprotected borders and the people in the border states sacrificed to protect the new deutsche mark. That's a strategy masterclass right there.

If the referendum was re run I'd now struggle to vote. I don't like the direction the EU is heading in politically, but I'm scared of the economic plan the tories have for us. 

So, I was a remain voter. I'd probably currently not vote in a re run.

There's more to life than money, which is just as well, because the tory plan looks a lot like a race to the uninsured no safety net no pension no health service bottom for the majority of us.

The alternative appears to be an unaccountable grey suited group of people in Brussels making sure all grey suits have the same number of buttons.