The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[sidcow]

Just now, Enda said:

There are 100 reasons.

Every EU country has a veto on new members. You ready to accede to whatever concessions a newly elected Sinn Féin government in Ireland would want? And ditto the farmers in Flanders and so on.

You’d need to the monetary union. That would be a problem. You’d probably have to join Schengen. That’s a problem.

Your country still doesn’t have a decent understanding of what the EU is/does. That’s a problem.

Rejoining would be at least 50% as messy as leaving was, imho.

As I've said earlier, I'm only saying it's perfectly possible, not what the term will be.

I think there would be a lot of pressure from within to strengthen the bloc with the addition of the world's 6th largest economy.

[Genie]

1 minute ago, sidcow said:

As I've said earlier, I'm only saying it's perfectly possible, not what the term will be.

I think there would be a lot of pressure from within to strengthen the bloc with the addition of the world's 6th largest economy.

and despite the Tories best efforts, one of the most desirable countries to live in.

[Enda]

9 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I think there would be a lot of pressure from within to strengthen the bloc with the addition of the world's 6th largest economy.

Fair enough. I’m just really not sure how big an effect that would actually be.

[Wainy316]

My (and the wife’s) parents getting on a bit is the absolute only reason I am raising my son in this country. 

[choffer]

 

 

[sidcow]

I mean, you were told over and over.  You chose not to listen. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-68261249

Dover farmer protests organiser says action could escalate

Quote

The organiser of a protest which brought more than 30 tractors to Dover on Friday night says further action "cannot be ruled out".

Jeff Gibson told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that widespread anger felt by UK farmers meant it could "very easily escalate".

 

Quote

He said trade deals agreed since Brexit had created an "utterly soul-destroying" situation.

 

Quote

Mr Gibson, from Yew Tree Farm in Wingham, Kent, said: "It seems harder to export goods out of the UK but importing goods in does not seem to have changed.

"What is making foreign food cheaper is lower levels of production costs and sustainability."

 

 

Edited February 10 by sidcow

[chrisp65]

It’s statistically impossible for so many people to have been kicked in the head by a horse.

Some of them must have had their own greed used against them in a fairly blatant scam.

 

[bickster]

2 hours ago, sidcow said:

I mean, you were told over and over.  You chose not to listen. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-68261249

Dover farmer protests organiser says action could escalate

 

 

 

 

As much as yes, this was said, you're falling into the trap of treating farmers as a bloc of people that all voted for Brexit, they didn't. It’s not remotely as simple as that and there’s no clear evidence that even half of them voted to leave. Most of the polling done before and after leads to a 50/50 split conclusion but in all honesty it’s all over the place and it depends on what type of farmer they are and where they farm. 
Going back and saying “told you so” isn’t remotely helpful either, it perpetuates the us and them divide. Those farmers protesting are right, support them, it doesn’t even matter how they voted, they know now how bad an idea it was, they are on the right side now and that all that matters.

[sidcow]

10 hours ago, bickster said:

As much as yes, this was said, you're falling into the trap of treating farmers as a bloc of people that all voted for Brexit, they didn't. It’s not remotely as simple as that and there’s no clear evidence that even half of them voted to leave. Most of the polling done before and after leads to a 50/50 split conclusion but in all honesty it’s all over the place and it depends on what type of farmer they are and where they farm. 
Going back and saying “told you so” isn’t remotely helpful either, it perpetuates the us and them divide. Those farmers protesting are right, support them, it doesn’t even matter how they voted, they know now how bad an idea it was, they are on the right side now and that all that matters.

Where did I say I don't support them? And obviously my comments are aimed at anyone who DID vote Brexit. 

I feel absolute sympathy for anyone who didn't vote Brexit and ended up caught in this shitfest. 

And yet another example of "Labour are the same as the Tories". Farmers and in fact everyone in this country will all be a damn site better off with a Government who work with Europe for better deals than a bunch of throbbers actively taking an antagonistic stance against Europe. 

Edited February 11 by sidcow

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I feel absolute sympathy for anyone who didn't vote Brexit and ended up caught in this shitfest.

You missed the point and this line highlights it. It implies you have no sympathy for those that did vote Brexit and are caught up in the mess. What I'm saying is you should have sympathy for them regardless of how they voted. They were lied to, they chose incorrectly but they know now.

The only way we'll ever get the EU to accept us again is by people changing their minds in a mass scale so they can be sure this won’t be an endless cycle of in and out. The “you were told” line isn’t helpful, nor is it even particularly valid for farmers. When you look at the age farmers (iirc over 33% are over 65) they actually voted to remain in far greater numbers than their general demographics across the country.

The past is the past, it’s done, revisiting how people in a particular industry voted, lumping them all together and quite frankly even getting that wrong, doesn’t move the debate forward one bit.

Those of us on the rejoin / closer ties side of the debate need everyone onside. Visiting your own wrong perception of the past isn’t helpful, it creates division, which is the last thing anyone needs.

[HKP90]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

You missed the point and this line highlights it. It implies you have no sympathy for those that did vote Brexit and are caught up in the mess. What I'm saying is you should have sympathy for them regardless of how they voted. They were lied to, they chose incorrectly but they know now.

The only way we'll ever get the EU to accept us again is by people changing their minds in a mass scale so they can be sure this won’t be an endless cycle of in and out. The “you were told” line isn’t helpful, nor is it even particularly valid for farmers. When you look at the age farmers (iirc over 33% are over 65) they actually voted to remain in far greater numbers than their general demographics across the country.

The past is the past, it’s done, revisiting how people in a particular industry voted, lumping them all together and quite frankly even getting that wrong, doesn’t move the debate forward one bit.

Those of us on the rejoin / closer ties side of the debate need everyone onside. Visiting your own wrong perception of the past isn’t helpful, it creates division, which is the last thing anyone needs.

I'm usually very forgiving, but I'm afraid I don't feel much sympathy for those who voted Brexit and have been f***ed over by Brexit. 

See when I am asked to give an opinion on something that I don't know much about, I either 1). Find out more about it until I have an opinion I can defend, or 2). Don't give an opinion. I don't pretend I know when I don't.  

In the case of option 1, even the smallest amount of research, or even thought would have exposed the nonsense that the Brexit side was peddling. 

Brexit won because of people thinking they knew what the argument was about, but they didn't. 

Edited February 11 by HKP90

[bickster]

1 hour ago, HKP90 said:

I'm usually very forgiving, but I'm afraid I don't feel much sympathy for those who voted Brexit and have been f***ed over by Brexit. 

See when I am asked to give an opinion on something that I don't know much about, I either 1). Find out more about it until I have an opinion I can defend, or 2). Don't give an opinion. I don't pretend I know when I don't.  

In the case of option 1, even the smallest amount of research, or even thought would have exposed the nonsense that the Brexit side was peddling. 

Brexit won because of people thinking they knew what the argument was about, but they didn't. 

Keep perpetuating the us against them line and you'll make getting back in very much harder. It’s not just those that voted to leave that need to change their outlook.

Telling people or groups of people that it’s their fault because of the way they voted, retains the fault lines in society and just makes people dig in and not change their minds. It’s not remotely helpful

Exception: Politicians

[HKP90]

48 minutes ago, bickster said:

Keep perpetuating the us against them line and you'll make getting back in very much harder. It’s not just those that voted to leave that need to change their outlook.

Telling people or groups of people that it’s their fault because of the way they voted, retains the fault lines in society and just makes people dig in and not change their minds. It’s not remotely helpful

Exception: Politicians

I appreciate that but on a personal level I find it hard to forgive the damage to my mental health caused by the back end of 2016. Brexit tore apart my family, split in two to this day. I'm not convinced those people who voted Brexit have learned anything whatsoever. They are not changing their mind because they realise they were wrong. They are changing it because it is hurting them. 

Maybe we all need some hurt to make it sink in, or no lessons will ever be learned and this will happen bigger and worse in the future. 

We deserve everything we get as a country as a result of that disastrous decision, and I'm pretty sick of people absolving their responsibility for it through pleads of ignorance. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Yeah. I'm still f***ing angry.

 

[sidcow]

5 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

I'm not convinced those people who voted Brexit have learned anything whatsoever. They are not changing their mind because they realise they were wrong. They are changing it because it is hurting them. 

I'm amazed they'd even connect Brexit to any hurt they're experiencing in all fairness. I'd expect them to blindly blame anything else. 

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

I'm not convinced those people who voted Brexit have learned anything whatsoever. They are not changing their mind because they realise they were wrong. They are changing it because it is hurting them. 

What? You're suggesting you have no sympathy for people whose lived experience has changed their opinion?
If they've changed their mind on an ideological level that’s ok but if they’ve changed their mind because it’s not going well for them then they haven't “learned.”

Madness, you have as much of a problem as they used to have

[HKP90]

14 minutes ago, bickster said:

What? You're suggesting you have no sympathy for people whose lived experience has changed their opinion?
If they've changed their mind on an ideological level that’s ok but if they’ve changed their mind because it’s not going well for them then they haven't “learned.”

Madness, you have as much of a problem as they used to have

I will forgive them in time, of course, and perhaps I was being a little hyperbolic. But sympathy in this case must for me go hand in hand with responsibility. 

When the penny drops and people involved accept their responsibility for it then yeah, absolutely, but there has been no contrition at all.

Taking the Brexiteers in my family as an example, the blame has so far been levelled at; Boris Johnson (not implementing it properly), Liz Truss (Likewise), tories in general for not explicitly telling them the plan they hatched was shit, immigrants (yes according to some in my family immigrants are the reason Brexit hasn't worked), the French, the Germans.

Not a single one of the Brexiteers I have EVER spoken to after brexit, and now think it was a bad idea have said that 'maybe I should have looked into it a little bit before I voted for' not a f***ing one of them. 

[bickster]

28 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

I will forgive them in time, of course, and perhaps I was being a little hyperbolic. But sympathy in this case must for me go hand in hand with responsibility. 

When the penny drops and people involved accept their responsibility for it then yeah, absolutely, but there has been no contrition at all.

Taking the Brexiteers in my family as an example, the blame has so far been levelled at; Boris Johnson (not implementing it properly), Liz Truss (Likewise), tories in general for not explicitly telling them the plan they hatched was shit, immigrants (yes according to some in my family immigrants are the reason Brexit hasn't worked), the French, the Germans.

Not a single one of the Brexiteers I have EVER spoken to after brexit, and now think it was a bad idea have said that 'maybe I should have looked into it a little bit before I voted for' not a f***ing one of them. 

Forgive? Contrition? You're treating it like a religion. Become a Brexit Atheist

its the changing of opinion that’s important not self flagellation of the former heretics

[mjmooney]

8 minutes ago, bickster said:

Forgive? Contrition? You're treating it like a religion. Become a Brexit Atheist

its the changing of opinion that’s important not self flagellation of the former heretics

Logically, I'm with you. Emotionally, I'm with @HKP90. 

[HKP90]

3 minutes ago, bickster said:

Forgive? Contrition? You're treating it like a religion. Become a Brexit Atheist

its the changing of opinion that’s important not self flagellation of the former heretics

Look, sympathy is a personal thing. You can't make people feel sympathy. 

It's not a religion, it's me saying I'm not accepting an apology that has not been offered, and I'm not sympathetic to people who have yet to even realise the ways in which they have hurt others, and frankly don't care.

Do I sympathise with those who voted remain, or even did not vote and who have been affected? Yes absolutely. 

Do I welcome and encourage a change in direction and mindset by former brexiteers? Yes absolutely. 

Do I sympathise with people who should have known better and did nothing but vote with vitriol toward foreigners to get a blue passport and bendy bananas? No. Not if they still think they are the principal victims here and have been done wrong. 

I appreciate you are trying to be the bigger man here, and I am also trying, but I can't make myself sympathise with these people if they don't give a shit. 

[HKP90]

7 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Logically, I'm with you. Emotionally, I'm with @HKP90. 

And this is how I am also torn internally. As I said I'm normally extremely tolerant and easy going. Look at my posts over the years, and I'm always firmly planted in the rational (I am a scientist), but man this divided my family and friends in ways I never thought possible, and it's hard to be rational on this subject. Hard for me anyway. It runs too deep and caused too much hurt.