The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[meregreen]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Nobody was lied to.

Some people were wilfully ignorant, lazy, and happy to have their self centred view of the world endorsed.

Nobody was persuaded to change their mind by a clever or specific deception.

 

There was a great big red bus with a huge F******g lie, driving up and down the country as I recall

[ml1dch]

"Why won't France take back control of our borders?"

 

 

[Genie]

Taking back control of the borders another lie.

[HanoiVillan]

13 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

This friend of yours, could you let them know I’ve still got this bridge for sale.

I would suggest there is a significant chance they did not have their vote changed by that bus, just endorsed. I mean, I can’t prove that, but I would be gobsmacked if they was simple enough to be persuaded to change their opinion by that bus slogan, yet competent enough to find their way to a polling station.

How many people, by a rough approximation, do you think were cogent enough to be nervous about trade deals, but were then gullible enough to be persuaded by the waving aloft of a pastie, or a cod, or a great british sausage?

I’ve not met anyone that has told me they were going to vote remain, but then listened to that weird bloke from Pimlico Plumbers and thought he was giving revelatory convincing new information that caused them to change their mind and change their vote.

 

This is a really weird argument you seem to be advancing in which persuasion is simply impossible, but clearly people do in fact change their minds about things.

[chrisp65]

16 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

This is a really weird argument you seem to be advancing in which persuasion is simply impossible, but clearly people do in fact change their minds about things.

I get that people can change their minds, I did a couple of times before I voted.

What I’m interested in, is if anyone was sure they were going to vote remain, they’d thought about educational exchanges and how complex trade deals are in a just in time economy, they’d had a think about the consequences for Northern Ireland, but saw a bus slogan and it changed their mind to be a leave voter.

I can see how people change their mind, I want to know who heard ‘we hold all the cards’ and it critically changed their vote.

This isn’t really something I’m making a strong stand on, it’s just an historical talking point, it’s gone now and we can’t re run it. In the years that have since gone by, I’ve heard there were lies, never met anyone that has felt lies tricked them out of their original voting intention. 

 

 

 

 

[desensitized43]

36 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

This is a really weird argument you seem to be advancing in which persuasion is simply impossible, but clearly people do in fact change their minds about things.

I don’t see it as impossible but have you ever seen the film Inception? I think that’s exactly what this is.

people can’t be told/persuaded that Brexit is a really shitty idea. They have to think they’ve come to that realisation on their own. Even though people like you and me have been telling them it’s a really shitty idea from the start.

[Davkaus]

I think lots of the individual little lies like "hold all the cards", "easiest deal in history" may not have swayed many people in isolation, but the continued rhetoric for months before the vote about how easy it'd be to reach these sunlit uplands with no downsides, just considerable upsides probably did add up to reassure a significant chunk of people it'd all be fine and the remoaners were making up lies about all of the inevitable problems we'd face.

If it was remain campaigners pointing out problems, and the leave campaign saying "yeah, probably" I'm not sure we'd have got the same result.

[HanoiVillan]

28 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I get that people can change their minds, I did a couple of times before I voted.

What I’m interested in, is if anyone was sure they were going to vote remain, they’d thought about educational exchanges and how complex trade deals are in a just in time economy, they’d had a think about the consequences for Northern Ireland, but saw a bus slogan and it changed their mind to be a leave voter.

I can see how people change their mind, I want to know who heard ‘we hold all the cards’ and it critically changed their vote.

This isn’t really something I’m making a strong stand on, it’s just an historical talking point, it’s gone now and we can’t re run it. In the years that have since gone by, I’ve heard there were lies, never met anyone that has felt lies tricked them out of their original voting intention.

Okay, that's clearer, but I don't think you can learn that. Voters are notoriously bad at remembering even *how* they voted, let alone what exactly was the final argument that tipped them. What we know is that Remain mostly held small leads in polling during the actual campaign, and that these leads had pretty much disappeared by polling day. There's many possible reasons for that, but one that seems worth considering on the face of it would be that some proportion of the electorate swung towards leave during the later stages of the campaign.

[bickster]

Going back to the poll we;re talking about

[Straggler]

At the time of the referendum most people were going from a position of not knowing, to then voting one way or the other. It's not a matter of persuading a remainer to become leave with a lie, it is getting the vote of the huge mass of people in the middle. The entire premise of the leave campaign was based on lies. There is virtually nothing that they promised that has proven to be true. 

In the last month or so how many stories have their been about fishermen very specifically complaining about how they were lied to (it's a lot)? Before that were the farmers who's crops went unpicked. Then there are the students who wanted to study in Europe. The leave campaign very clearly stated that they intended to keep us in the single market, they derided people who claimed otherwise. Never mind the bus that was the tip of the spear of the lie that we would be better able to fund our public services because we would all be financially better off outside Europe. It was then and has proven to be utter bollocks. 

The lies were repeated in the press, they were all over Facebook, they were claxoned all over the place and if you don't think all these lies had an impact on the result then I have a tower in Paris to sell you.

To say that there were no lies and even if there were lies they didn't make a difference is factually as wrong as it is possible to be wrong. 

 

 

 

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, Straggler said:

At the time of the referendum most people were going from a position of not knowing, to then voting one way or the other. It's not a matter of persuading a remainer to become leave with a lie, it is getting the vote of the huge mass of people in the middle. The entire premise of the leave campaign was based on lies. There is virtually nothing that they promised that has proven to be true. 

In the last month or so how many stories have their been about fishermen very specifically complaining about how they were lied to (it's a lot)? Before that were the farmers who's crops went unpicked. Then there are the students who wanted to study in Europe. The leave campaign very clearly stated that they intended to keep us in the single market, they derided people who claimed otherwise. Never mind the bus that was the tip of the spear of the lie that we would be better able to fund our public services because we would all be financially better off outside Europe. It was then and has proven to be utter bollocks. 

The lies were repeated in the press, they were all over Facebook, they were claxoned all over the place and if you don't think all these lies had an impact on the result then I have a tower in Paris to sell you.

To say that there were no lies and even if there were lies they didn't make a difference is factually as wrong as it is possible to be wrong. 

 

 

 

Find me someone that changed their mind because of a bus advert or a beermat.

[bickster]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Find me someone that changed their mind because of a bus advert or a beermat.

Its the wrong question, The question really should be... Find me someone who formed their opinion based on what was on the side of the bus etc and there will literally be millions. It wasn't about changing minds, most people really didn't give a shit until this all started, they didn't have an opinion to change

[Genie]

 

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

Its the wrong question, The question really should be... Find me someone who formed their opinion based on what was on the side of the bus etc and there will literally be millions. It wasn't about changing minds, most people really didn't give a shit until this all started, they didn't have an opinion to change

You beat me to it. 

To suggest there were no lies in the leave campaign is absolutely bonkers.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Genie

[Genie]

On the left, another vote leave lie

 

[chrisp65]

Well, we’re clearly not going to agree here, and that’s fine.

I still haven’t seen any evidence of anyone that changed their vote because of a billboard, beermat, bus.

Fishermen that voted Leave because they were told british fish prefer british nets and will be worth more when british boats sell them to Johnny Foreigner at increased prices, well, I suspect those idiots were always going to vote leave anyway, because of the war or something.

 

[Genie]

3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I still haven’t seen any evidence of anyone that changed their vote because of a billboard, beermat, bus.

That’s not the same thing as you said yesterday.

You said nobody was lied to, which is as wrong as any statement ever said in the history of the world.

The justification seems to be that because you personally saw through them then they didn’t qualify as lies.

Did people believe the lies? Well clearly yes, as leave won the referendum vote. Were people going to vote remain until the plethora of lies commenced? I assume it’s a mixture of people who were regular readers of the The Sun, Express and Mail and already very anti-EU before they got the option to vote leave. There will be plenty who were swing voters and believed the politicians telling them that they had nothing to worry about if they voted leave, as it was all upsides.

[chrisp65]

3 minutes ago, Genie said:

That’s not the same thing as you said yesterday.

You said nobody was lied to, which is as wrong as any statement ever said in the history of the world.

The justification seems to be that because you personally saw through them then they didn’t qualify as lies.

Did people believe the lies? Well clearly yes, as leave won the referendum vote. Were people going to vote remain until the plethora of lies commenced? I assume it’s a mixture of people who were regular readers of the The Sun, Express and Mail and already very anti-EU before they got the option to vote leave. There will be plenty who were swing voters and believed the politicians telling them that they had nothing to worry about if they voted leave, as it was all upsides.

It’s not the same thing as I said yesterday purely because I’m trying not to repeat myself.

The ‘lies’ were pundits projections of an unknown, advertising puffs, clear conjecture.

Wales are playing Belarus tonight, put everything you can on it, we can’t lose.

 

 

 

[LondonLax]

49 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Well, we’re clearly not going to agree here, and that’s fine.

I still haven’t seen any evidence of anyone that changed their vote because of a billboard, beermat, bus.

Fishermen that voted Leave because they were told british fish prefer british nets and will be worth more when british boats sell them to Johnny Foreigner at increased prices, well, I suspect those idiots were always going to vote leave anyway, because of the war or something.

 

Why spend millions on any advertising at all if it doesn’t actually influence peoples actions? 

[meregreen]

People make up their minds according to the information they are given. If that information is false, then of course it will influence their vote. My own family, Sister, Brother etc. we’re constantly regurgitating the crap being spouted by Farage and his ilk. I think to regard propoganda as not effective, is to ignore the lessons of history. If it doesn’t work, then no one would do it.

[chrisp65]

3 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

Why spend millions on any advertising at all if it doesn’t actually influence peoples actions? 

I’m clearly getting my message wrong here, which is my fault.

Of course advertising influences. An advert will persuade you to buy a Renault instead of a Citroen, a VW instead of a Skoda. But how many buy a car that didn’t want to buy a car?

If you are minded to buy some deodorant, and Sure says it doesn’t leave marks and Lynx says several women will pay to give you blow jobs, you might well chose to buy the Lynx. If you don’t then get paid for blow jobs, did you fall for a lie?