sidcow Posted November 12, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted November 12, 2021 3 hours ago, bickster said: Not so sure about that, the EU has for quite sometime been an expansionist Trading Bloc, on the whole they'd still prefer us to be in than not. Look at Macron, the way he's acting, he wouldn't be doing that if he wanted us to stay out. He's doing it because he wants Brexit to be bad. Sure they'd need some reassurance (and a complete change of Government here) but ultimately they still want us back in. Agree on the reapply vs rejoin Hmmm. So on that basis, would they want us back in enough to reinstate our old position with the pound etc? If say the public would vote in with the pound but stay out with the Euro, would they want us in badly enough to want that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 12, 2021 Moderator Share Posted November 12, 2021 Just now, sidcow said: So on that basis, would they want us back in enough to reinstate our old position with the pound etc? No, of course not. They'd only let us back as willing partners of the project and accepting the EUro would be an obvious pre-condition and in some respects woiuld act as a show of faith in the project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted November 12, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted November 12, 2021 3 hours ago, bickster said: There is also a counter balance to that in that currently employed Middle Aged people will look to be able to retire to Europe etc and that may also affect voting intentions if the scenario ever arose. There were an awful lot of retirement age people who were well pissed off that they were plain lied to about how easy it would be to go retire to Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 12, 2021 Moderator Share Posted November 12, 2021 1 minute ago, sidcow said: There were an awful lot of retirement age people who were well pissed off that they were plain lied to about how easy it would be to go retire to Spain. Yes there are but I suspect they were mostly remainers with that in mind to be honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 Picked up my residency card yesterday so I've got minimum 5 maximum 10 years here 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 Nobody was lied to. Some people were wilfully ignorant, lazy, and happy to have their self centred view of the world endorsed. Nobody was persuaded to change their mind by a clever or specific deception. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 If lied to is too strong a word then at least use mislead But then in politics in general when are we not? This vote was no different from any other it was just easier to confuse people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 5 hours ago, ml1dch said: Until there is near consensus on reapplying (which is probably the term people should use, rather than rejoining) then I think they'll be quite happy keeping us at arm's length. Particularly while the current arrangements favour them so heavily. Or, as Stephen Bush pithily puts it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: Nobody was lied to. Some people were wilfully ignorant, lazy, and happy to have their self centred view of the world endorsed. Nobody was persuaded to change their mind by a clever or specific deception. The easiest trade deal in human history No Single Market For Services No forms, no checks, no barriers. The Union Will Be Stronger If We Leave No Barriers To Trade No Regression On Rights We Will Negotiate A Trade Deal In 11 Months Roaming in the EU will still be free Also, the £350m a week figure for the NHS was a lie as Cummings recently admitted it didn’t include the £100m we get back as a rebate. Edited November 12, 2021 by Genie 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: Nobody was lied to. Some people were wilfully ignorant, lazy, and happy to have their self centred view of the world endorsed. Nobody was persuaded to change their mind by a clever or specific deception. I mean, they were, demonstrably, as @Genie states. There's absolutely an argument that the lies were debunked and people should have been able to make an informed choice despite the lies, but they were lied to, then reelected the liars. But we're not meant to call the electorate morons because it hurts their feelings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 10 minutes ago, Genie said: The easiest trade deal in human history No Single Market For Services No forms, no checks, no barriers. The Union Will Be Stronger If We Leave No Barriers To Trade No Regression On Rights We Will Negotiate A Trade Deal In 11 Months Roaming in the EU will still be free Also, the £350m a week figure for the NHS was a lie as Cummings recently admitted it didn’t include the £100m we get back as a rebate. If you buy tampons you’ll be able skydive in white jeans whilst holding down a fabulous job as a DJ and running the London marathon with your fabulous friends that will never guess that you are on. I guess someone somewhere bought tampons thinking that would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: If you buy tampons you’ll be able skydive in white jeans whilst holding down a fabulous job as a DJ and running the London marathon with your fabulous friends that will never guess that you are on. I guess someone somewhere bought tampons thinking that would happen. You’ve lost me I’m afraid. A lie is a lie, just because you didn’t believe it others might/did. It’s still a lie and many bought it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted November 12, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted November 12, 2021 16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: If you buy tampons you’ll be able skydive in white jeans whilst holding down a fabulous job as a DJ and running the London marathon with your fabulous friends that will never guess that you are on. I guess someone somewhere bought tampons thinking that would happen. Well I certainly did and none of that came true. Never even went rollerblading being towed by dogs 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, Genie said: You’ve lost me I’m afraid. A lie is a lie, just because you didn’t believe it others might/did. It’s still a lie and many bought it. I think it was fanciful beyond any reasonable belief. A puff. Or a ‘mere puff’ from my dabble in A level law. The list you’ve read, nobody could give that any level of serious thought and believe it where they weren’t already aiming to vote leave for their own un focused non reasoned reasons. I’ve never bought Lynx deodorant thinking women will pay to have my babies. Do people buy a selection of top of the range perfumes worth £300 for just £15 from the guy with a trellis table that’s set up in the street and think they’re getting £300 of perfumes? It’s beyond lying because it requires you to suspend every last sliver of critical thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I think it was fanciful beyond any reasonable belief. A puff. Or a ‘mere puff’ from my dabble in A level law. The list you’ve read, nobody could give that any level of serious thought and believe it where they weren’t already aiming to vote leave for their own un focused non reasoned reasons. I’ve never bought Lynx deodorant thinking women will pay to have my babies. Do people buy a selection of top of the range perfumes worth £300 for just £15 from the guy with a trellis table that’s set up in the street and think they’re getting £300 of perfumes? It’s beyond lying because it requires you to suspend every last sliver of critical thinking. You’re dragging it into the ridiculous to try and make a point. The big red bus alone was enough to secure many, many votes. I actually messaged a friend of mine to ask why he voted leave and he said it was to better fund the NHS with the savings from the membership fees. I’m sure others who might have been nervous about trade deals would have been put at ease by the “we hold all the cards” and “easiest trade deal in history”. Farmers and fishermen were also lured in by the lack of any trade barriers etc etc. It’s great that you saw through all the lies, but they were lies nonetheless, and many people believed them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: It’s beyond lying because it requires you to suspend every last sliver of critical thinking. Have you met the public? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 52 minutes ago, Genie said: You’re dragging it into the ridiculous to try and make a point. The big red bus alone was enough to secure many, many votes. I actually messaged a friend of mine to ask why he voted leave and he said it was to better fund the NHS with the savings from the membership fees. I’m sure others who might have been nervous about trade deals would have been put at ease by the “we hold all the cards” and “easiest trade deal in history”. Farmers and fishermen were also lured in by the lack of any trade barriers etc etc. It’s great that you saw through all the lies, but they were lies nonetheless, and many people believed them. This friend of yours, could you let them know I’ve still got this bridge for sale. I would suggest there is a significant chance they did not have their vote changed by that bus, just endorsed. I mean, I can’t prove that, but I would be gobsmacked if they was simple enough to be persuaded to change their opinion by that bus slogan, yet competent enough to find their way to a polling station. How many people, by a rough approximation, do you think were cogent enough to be nervous about trade deals, but were then gullible enough to be persuaded by the waving aloft of a pastie, or a cod, or a great british sausage? I’ve not met anyone that has told me they were going to vote remain, but then listened to that weird bloke from Pimlico Plumbers and thought he was giving revelatory convincing new information that caused them to change their mind and change their vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 Would anyone on VT be willing to confess their vote was turned after a convincing argument from that pub landlord? Had anyone doubted Johnson, and then had a change of heart? Any previously sceptical about Farage that then listened to a monologue and were won over due to new facts? Who picked up a disguarded Daily Mail and changed their mind on immigration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 17 minutes ago, Davkaus said: Have you met the public? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Would anyone on VT be willing to confess their vote was turned after a convincing argument from that pub landlord? Had anyone doubted Johnson, and then had a change of heart? Any previously sceptical about Farage that then listened to a monologue and were won over due to new facts? Who picked up a disguarded Daily Mail and changed their mind on immigration? I don’t think brexiteers were converted remainers, or at least not many of them were. Vote leave painted this picture of a UK that was no worse than it already was, but had several benefits on top. Remain voters didn’t believe the message, but enough of the population did. Edited November 12, 2021 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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