sharkyvilla Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 I'm genuinely surprised they've agreed a new deal, I was very dubious about Boris and co putting any real effort into avoiding no deal but I still see the same problems with getting it through parliament. The Irish border remains a circle you can't square with the current electoral maths whichever way you try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko154 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 If they held a new referendum tomorrow, leave or remain, what do you think the split would be? Not that it's going to happen, but I would imagine it would be heavily in the remainers favour after the absolute mess parliament have made of Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 17, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, wilko154 said: If they held a new referendum tomorrow, leave or remain, what do you think the split would be? Not that it's going to happen, but I would imagine it would be heavily in the remainers favour after the absolute mess parliament have made of Brexit. Only marginally different to the original result. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 It would be the same because people are sick of it, and people still don't know how it will affect them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, wilko154 said: If they held a new referendum tomorrow, leave or remain, what do you think the split would be? Not that it's going to happen, but I would imagine it would be heavily in the remainers favour after the absolute mess parliament have made of Brexit. At least it would be a much better referendum where voters know exactly what the two options mean this time round. Whether leave or remain won we would be more inclined to accept the result and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 17, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: At least it would be a much better referendum where voters know exactly what the two options mean this time round. Whether leave or remain won we would be more inclined to accept the result and move on. Disagree here. An awful lot of people still wouldn't know what it meant, even if they have their heads screwed on and a bit of an interest in it. The average bloke down the pub won't have a clue even now. Even when this latest deal is taken apart in the coming days the same old shit would come from the vox populi interviews in Stoke and Barnsley. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethRDR Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) Would like to think there'd be more than two options on the ballot paper of Referendum 2: Judgement Day, but that'd be asking for waaaaaay too much. Edited October 17, 2019 by GarethRDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: Whether leave or remain won we would be more inclined to accept the result and move on. On the whole I think the public did that in 2016, it’s the politicians who refuse to do so. Jo Swinson for example, has said that even if Remainers lost a second referendum she still wouldn’t accept the result. Without the losers consent democracy simply cannot work, b/c it makes a mockery of the entire process. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 What about winner's consent? Leavers still can't agree as a whole what leaving actually means. Also, a democracy fails to be a democracy if its population cannot change its mind after some time, with further evidence. But fine, WILL OF THE PEOPLE thwarts all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: I read an article last night that suggested only 8 of them might vote for the deal ( based on the leaks presumably) I think it's a bit of a Catch 22 situation for a lot of them. They want to vote for a deal, but the last thing they want to do is vote for a deal that then fails. They expect it to fail, vote against it and so it fails. I reckon if it looked like it would pass with a dozen Labour votes, they'd find them. But if it looks like it'll fail even with those votes, they won't get them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 I reckon a good portion of leavers must have died in the past 3 years too so that will help swing it the right way I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 17, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2019 The EU's patience will have run out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: What about winner's consent? Leavers still can't agree as a whole what leaving actually means. Also, a democracy fails to be a democracy if its population cannot change its mind after some time, with further evidence. But fine, WILL OF THE PEOPLE thwarts all. This is such a caricature. By all means have another referendum, after the promise to implement the result of the first one has been delivered. Also what leaving meant was clear: out of the customs union, the single market and ECJ jurisdiction. I’m quite happy to accept that’s a process rather than an event, but it still has to be delivered. If politicians are allowed to chin-off the result of one nationwide democratic vote b/c they don’t like it, the fundamental damage it will cause to faith in the entire system can’t be taken back. I realize some people think that’s a price worth paying, I think they’re profoundly & dangerously wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I reckon a good portion of leavers must have died in the past 3 years too so that will help swing it the right way I'm sure. What a charmer. Have a word... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) need the electorate to be well informed for democracy to function properly tbh. And I don't give a damn if that's condescending or whatever. There's no way ANY OF US were capable of deciding the benefits of a vastly complex membership. Plus, you know the decades long propaganda, by our disingenuous lying shithead in chief, pernicious lobbying, corruption by the leave side etc, whatever. Fundamentally Brexit is a **** shit idea, and protecting what rights we have left, and our future prospects trumps abiding by some lousy referendum, that never saw any reasonable debate or informing going on before hand. I want a bright future for my kids and some hope for a decent society. So, **** everything that tries to stop that. **** the tories, **** the propaganda, **** the deceit. Edited October 17, 2019 by Rodders 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 17, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I reckon a good portion of leavers must have died in the past 3 years too so that will help swing it the right way I'm sure. Have the second ref in February, just to be sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Awol said: Also what leaving meant was clear: out of the customs union, the single market and ECJ jurisdiction. TO YOU. This is what leaving meant TO YOU. You cannot stand here in good faith and argue everyone who voted leave meant the above. It's objectively, and PROVABLY wrong. Prominent Leave figures stood there time and time again stating leaving wouldn't mean leaving the single market, others said we'd stay in a customs union. Some others said it meant leaving everything to do with the EU. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: TO YOU. This is what leaving meant TO YOU. You cannot stand here in good faith and argue everyone who voted leave meant the above. It's objectively, and PROVABLY wrong. Prominent Leave figures stood there time and time again stating leaving wouldn't mean leaving the single market, others said we'd stay in a customs union. Some others said it meant leaving everything to do with the EU. This is simply wrong, as the many compiled videos of leading figures on both sides saying that’s what leaving meant, demonstrate. I can’t be arsed to have a 3 year old argument with you though, so knock yourself out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Just now, Awol said: This is simply wrong, as the many compiled videos of leading figures on both sides saying that’s what leaving meant, demonstrate. I can’t be arsed to have a 3 year old argument with you though, so knock yourself out. 'I can't be arsed to argue because a simple Google proves me totally wrong'. 'We were always at war with Eastasia' springs to mind tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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