Enda Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, peterms said: Ah, ardent unionists: so dedicated to NI's position in the UK that they will use physical force against Parliament if necessary. Loyal to the Crown as long as the Crown protects their interests. Fun fact: it was the UVF who introduced guns into twentieth century Irish politics, secretly importing 25,000 rifles when Parliament passed the Home Rule Act. Some things never change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 39 minutes ago, Chindie said: The long term impact of Brexit will be us further pivoting to America, and that'll be the thing that really hurts us. Presumably you are talking lax regulation and standards etc ? currently the USA is our biggest trading country ( obv. Combined EU is bigger ) and this appears to have been done on fairly decent terms for both parties and without compromising our EU ties , standards etc. And we have a surplus on trade with the US rather than a deficit that we have with the EU I get we could be desperate for a deal post Brexit , but is it a given that any furthering of our relationship is going to hurt us ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 17, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Demitri_C said: How many extensions have we had? How long have we had to sort this mess out? How many times have these fools failed to agree on anything? We are a complete laughing stock What choice was there? May's deal was shit and so is this one. Parliament is hung and the European question slices through party lines making the parliamentary arithmetic even worse. Were MPs who knew the deal was shit supposed to just go along with it? As far as parliament goes there's not much to laugh at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/17/british-businesses-say-new-brexit-deal-worse-than-mays-deal?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571333980 Quote An industry source said the changes meant the new agreement was “either the same or worse than the March deal” for goods exporters on every issue. Multiple sources in industry groups and major companies said the new deal gave greater scope for regulatory divergence that would make it more difficult for British companies to sell to their biggest export market. The revised declaration also abandoned a commitment to avoid rules of origin checks, potentially adding significant barriers to trade, which could affect industries reliant on frictionless imports, such as the automotive sector. A spokeswoman for Jaguar Land Rover, the UK’s largest carmaker, said the company “needs a deal that protects tariff-free and frictionless trade and guarantees a level playing field on critical areas of regulation and immigration”. Carolyn Fairbairn, the director general of the Confederation of British Industry, said “business has serious concerns about the direction of the future UK-EU relationship” and the deal remained “inadequate” on services. “Decades of free and frictionless trade with the UK’s largest market, forged by thousands of firms big and small, must not be abandoned,” she said. May gave business groups explicit verbal assurances that her government would seek to continue regulatory cooperation with the EU after Brexit. The present government has so far not given any similar assurances and the indications have been that it would seek a deregulatory agenda, according to a separate source involved in discussions between business and ministers. The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy was approached for comment. But what do businesses know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 57 minutes ago, blandy said: It seems like it's essentially morphed into being in the actual deal, rather than being a contingency, only to be invoked in the event of various technical solutions not materialising. No wonder (from their perspective) the DUP are against . Yes, I think this is the correct analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Enda said: Fun fact: it was the UVF who introduced guns into twentieth century Irish politics, secretly importing 25,000 rifles when Parliament passed the Home Rule Act. Some things never change. If my history today memory is correct , didn’t the UVF arm initially to defy the British government by force if required ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisVillan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/17/british-businesses-say-new-brexit-deal-worse-than-mays-deal?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571333980 But what do businesses know? I'm sure we're about to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 18 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: How many extensions have we had? How long have we had to sort this mess out? How many times have these fools failed to agree on anything? We are a complete laughing stock What exactly should they have agreed to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Urgh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 . . . that doesn't take into account abstentions, of which there will definitely be some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 17, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Presumably you are talking lax regulation and standards etc ? currently the USA is our biggest trading country ( obv. Combined EU is bigger ) and this appears to have been done on fairly decent terms for both parties and without compromising our EU ties , standards etc. And we have a surplus on trade with the US rather than a deficit that we have with the EU I get we could be desperate for a deal post Brexit , but is it a given that any furthering of our relationship is going to hurt us ? The stuff that the UK does business with the US on currently isn't the stuff that concerns anyone. We buy high end items from the US like aircraft, some materials, we effectively swap financial services, and the US buys machinery, some food items and some materials from us. On the EU side these don't really overly effect the market's integrity. When we go to do a deal with the US, which we will, the gloves will come off. The US's big industries are agriculture and pharmaceutical. The agricultural industry is basically shut out of the EU due to divergent standards and costs. This industry has an enormous lobbying clout in Washington. It will form part of any deal done, and it'll be in the US's favour as the far stronger partner. Pharma has a similar position and is looking hungrily at the European market, which currently holds it at bay through its combined strength, to its annoyance. A lone UK will have the NHS has a tasty morsel and that will be on the table instantly, and again the UK will be buggered by US dollars. The Tory Party is fully aware of this and had been positioning the NHS as a brand rather than a service for a while, which US healthcare providers will only too happily lap up. Which in turn will cause issues with any EU trade as you'll suddenly have the UK being a threat to the market integrity. Especially on food. Which will send us ever more into American arms. And pockets. And some people will be happy. And an awful lot more won't. But the cuts will be slow and small and nobody will notice until it's too late. Which is all part of the plan with Brexit. Bleed em slow. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 17, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: . . . that doesn't take into account abstentions, of which there will definitely be some. For some read 'lots' imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 22 minutes ago, ml1dch said: What exactly should they have agreed to do? I'll answer you and @Chindie Perhaps be a bit more organised and accepted the mistakes they were making? Then accepted if they were out of their depth revoked the process of leaving. Let's be honest we all know whatever happens whether that's leaving with or without this country will not be better off. People taht voted out woukd have been pissed off for a while but they would have got over it after while. We can't blame the eu for ourselves failing to come up with solutions and having a utter shambles in our parilmebf when they don't agree on absolutely nothing. Also that fool may calling a election making it even more difficult to get a agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 24 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: If my history today memory is correct , didn’t the UVF arm initially to defy the British government by force if required ? Correct! Treason, pure and simple. Roger Casement was hanged for importing arms into Ireland. The UVF boys? Some of them got knighthoods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Enda said: Those saying the backstop is gone are correct. Ireland/the EU has agreed to sacrifice the backstop in exchange for the permission of a majority of a functioning NI executive to withdraw from the deal. The key is functioning. Sinn Fein can collapse the Assembly whenever they want, and then NI are stuck in. So Boris "Churchill" Johnson has just handed a huge power card to SF, whose principal aim is create unity between NI and the Republic. Why would Sinn Fein of all parties ever ever ever ever agree to a hard border in Ireland? Yeah, we'll take that compromise Clearly at some point in the middle of last night, Arlene woke up and realised that the DUP were the Northern Ireland Unionists that had negotiated themselves in to a position where the new deal, should it go through, could over time, edge towards a united Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, ml1dch said: Urgh. Have they got Sam Gyimah voting for the deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 25 minutes ago, snowychap said: Have they got Sam Gyimah voting for the deal? I'd assume not. 19 MPs, Norman Lamb voting with the Government so the 18 shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 hours ago, ml1dch said: What exactly should they have agreed to do? Accept a Brexit deal just to "get it done", even if it throws families into poverty, it's worth it. Getting it done is always the outcome to look at when closing a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 38 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Norman Lamb voting with the Government Why's he doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Oh course he thinks it's a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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