Vive_La_Villa Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 Serious question to those that think we are f**ked for decades to come because of Brexit. Would you or have you considered leaving the country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 I already did. And I'm not sure why people should have to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted March 1, 2018 No. And I'm tired of its use as a 'gotcha' already. Just because people believe things are going to get worse doesn't mean they immediately have to up sticks. Or will even want to. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 5 minutes ago, Chindie said: No. And I'm tired of its use as a 'gotcha' already. Just because people believe things are going to get worse doesn't mean they immediately have to up sticks. Or will even want to. Why does it have to be a 'gotcha'? It was a genuine question to understand the extent of concerned people are. Man too much paranoia on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 55 minutes ago, Chindie said: All of these constructs are created by decades (or on the case of the state, centuries) of evolution. The EU is an ongoing evolution of a project that started 70 years ago as a way of getting Europe back on its feet and getting France and Germany to trade with each other after 2 wars trying to destroy each other. And not only is an evolution, it's an evolution with lots of hands pulling it in different directions. Meaning you have an odd compromise organisation. And compromises in those compromises - see the UK basically having a golden deal no-one else had through fighting our own interests in the organisation. It's a weird imperfect leviathan, and nobody would design it like that, because a designer would have a singular vision for it. Ironically the position the UK found itself in in May 2016 was pretty **** cushty as far as being an EU member went. Quite. And well put. I get it, we had a seat at the table, we had the City of London washing all the money. My point was more that this topic in particular stands testament to how entrenched people in general can become and how easy it is to become embroiled in arguing for something regardless of anything other than their own perception. Evolution or revolution though right Chindie? As you point out systems evolve (I would argue ours has survived so long BECAUSE of it's evolutionary nature). The point for systems in a historical context is how far the scales of balance tip though surely. The people have evolved towards globalisation much quicker than our political systems have and for me it's evolve or die time. The situation in Venezuela over the last 20 years or so should stand testament to what the international community thinks about someone refusing to play ball with the IMF for instance. Compliance please if you will - OR ELSE - is still just a threat however you dress it up. What are people supposed to think if that is the response to questioning the way we are? People seem to generally, across the board, want fairness, a degree of transparency, consistency, Law and Order, efficiency and so on from their governments - applying the principles of questioning the why we do things the way we do, rather than the what we're doing, would include corporatism driving medical reasearch and so on. Questions with uncomfortable moral reasoning for some. People are quick to point at the US for instance and say they'll let you die without a credit card at a hospital but that detracts from the real issue of why we're still letting potential profit drive the research or the availability of treatments depending on geographical or economic principles. The idea that food waste and starvation/malnourishment are two problems that co-exist in our society. In 2018? Crypto currencies highlghts another 'why not?' to me whether they succeed in the long run or fail. The IDEA is what needs putting back in the box very quickly and why I believe, during Brexit, we had 2 camps selling the same product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 5 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I already did. And I'm not sure why people should have to leave. Didn't you leave before the Brexit vote even took place ? (my timelines may be off but it seemed a long time ago you went) Tbf he didn't say people should have to leave ... he asked if anyone had considered it I think regardless of any events people are always right to consider moving abroad if there is an opportunity , I did it , but ultimately I had better opportunities back here than I did in Hungary so came back home ... currently I still do , but I'd evaluate the situation from time to time ... like right now when I'm bloody freezing 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 1, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2018 4 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: I find the way the vast majority of people I've met down the years seem to vote solely along economic lines fascinating and always have. Politics is about so much more than money. Brexit has become (some might say always has been) amazingly tribal. I have never witnessed 2 diametrically opposed views being so fiercely defended before, I don't think. I don't think I've witnessed anything in my 40 odd years that people are so convinced that their view is THE right one and everyone else is stupid outside of religions and other cults. I think, as people get caught up in the hysteria over the last or next headline the complexity of the issue gets dissolved somehow. And that's a massive shame. The debate that should be raging in the country imo is which laws we need to retain and how are we going to assimilate those laws in to or legal system. The points @chrisp65 make are entirely valid imo. I was always under the impression that the EEC/Single Market/Economic Union aspect was the thing everyone saw some benefit in. The Social Charter and the EURO upset the apple cart. Much of the remain argument at the moment at least seems to focus on the economic aspects against an argument that is formed around non-economic reasoning. I think this fuels the tribalism and confusion or blindness to the 'other side' that I was on about a few sentences ago. It's all a bit apples and oranges to me. There's something in that, definitely. But there's also something overlooked, IMO. I think I'm fairly similar to chris in my take on the EU - I'm not an enthusiast for memebership, and though I vited remain, it was with a sort of pinched nose. Anyway, the thing overlooked is the style of case made by each "side" since the referendum happened. The remain/soft brexit side has certainly spoken a lot about economy stuff, for sure and it's mostly predictions, rather than facts. But the main thing/technique they have been using is to use facts and information and detail and treaty wording and specifics and structured argument. You can disagree or counter with other angles, but their approach has been reasonably logical and based around reason. The leave/hard brexit side has not done that. They've used "promises" (mostly subsequently rescinded), they've used lies, they've used attacks on people, rather than arguments, they've essentially been dishonest and vitriolic. Whether it's the Daily Mail, the likes of Moggy, IDS, Boris Johnson and the other loony tunes. Occasionally they make a good point, but mostly they concentrate on innacurate generalities. As someone who would really like to hear proper information and stuff about how things will be, it's massively disappointing to say the least, that the hard brexit people only talk in lies and personal attacks. And on top of all that there's both Labour and Tory pushing for this impossible version of "meaningless slogan" Brexit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Why does it have to be a 'gotcha'? It was a genuine question to understand the extent of concerned people are. Man too much paranoia on this thread. Probably because, and it may be down to perception again, but some of us remember "Why don't you go back home" being a thing. "Why don't you just go and live in Russia" being a thing. On a conceptual level I would guess most people have considered leaving the UK in their lives haven't they? How practical for people that actually is is another thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said: Probably because, and it may be down to perception again, but some of us remember "Why don't you go back home" being a thing. "Why don't you just go and live in Russia" being a thing. On a conceptual level I would guess most people have considered leaving the UK in their lives haven't they? How practical for people that actually is is another thing. I personally think this country is a great place to live. Brexit or no Brexit. Edited March 1, 2018 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I personally think this country is a great place to live. Brexit or no Brexit. So do I We have surely evolved as a society past the need for exclusion for dissent haven't we? Especially in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 12 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Tbf he didn't say people should have to leave ... he asked if anyone had considered it True. Well said. In order to understand the response Vive got from some though it helps to understand how it may be perceived I'd say. I could post a few articles with headlines like "Why dont you just go and live in Russia if you dont like Brexit" but to be honest the idea of having to post an accompanying link that may drive revenue their way aint happening. But if people are really that interested the search bar of your choice is at your disposal. Like I said above though I think we've evolved past the need for the 'Love it or Leave it' argument though haven't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said: True. Well said. In order to understand the response Vive got from some though it helps to understand how it may be perceived I'd say. I could post a few articles with headlines like "Why dont you just go and live in Russia if you dont like Brexit" but to be honest the idea of having to post an accompanying link that may drive revenue their way aint happening. But if people are really that interested the search bar of your choice is at your disposal. Like I said above though I think we've evolved past the need for the 'Love it or Leave it' argument though haven't we? indeed tbh the responses he got were sorta expected , posters can be quite passionate in their views and that does seem to influence the way people view posts ... an innocent question for one poster can be red rag to a bull for another , that's the nature of a forum when you have some ardent people , indeed it's what makes the forum work in some threads... we wouldn't have 434 pages on this one if everyone agreed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 1, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2018 3 hours ago, mjmooney said: The fact that nobody agrees, nobody knows what's going to happen, is the ultimate proof of why the stupid, stupid referendum should never have happened. How can you vote, when you don't know what you're voting for (or against)? I was never implacably opposed to leaving, but I wanted the debate and detailed analysis that is barely starting now, to have happened WAY in advance of any voting. And that voting should be in the form of a general election, with detailed manifestos, rather than a ridiculous yes/no question, with no detail. It was inappropriate and arguably unconstitutional, and should be scrapped immediately. Then we start over, and do the work properly. That's a decent point, but not incontrovertible. If it was felt necessary for "the country" to make a choice on staying/leaving, then there's an argument to say a referendum, rather than a bunch of whipped and ill informed MPs, voting for reasons of career, party loyalty or whatever, is not necessarily automatically a worse set of people to participate in that decision. I agree with the second para completely (whether for a referendum or a GE) The last para, the genie is out of the bottle, the omelette is made, the eggs are broken, they can't be put back in the shell by the Gov't that held the referendum, promising they would abide by the outcome. But given the question was so basic, the information so lacking, there's an argument to have another one on the "deal", though that too is not perhaps going to be any less surrounded by lies and fear mongering and stuff. So maybe political leaders (May/ Corbyn/Sturgeon/Wood etc.) should work together to draw up a combined position to go to the EU with and then trigger Article 50. For me triggering A50 when she did was the main stupidity, far worse than the referendum being held. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: indeed tbh the responses he got were sorta expected , posters can be quite passionate in their views and that does seem to influence the way people view posts ... an innocent question for one poster can be red rag to a bull for another , that's the nature of a forum when you have some ardent people , indeed it's what makes the forum work in some threads... we wouldn't have 434 pages on this one if everyone agreed I tried to word it in a way that would avoid the 'if you don't like it then leave'. But I understand how it could have been taken that way. I have to admit if I was as passionate as some people are about leaving the EU I'd seriously consider moving to Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC_Hitz Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 I don't like it but I'll have to go along with it. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 5 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I have to admit if I was as passionate as some people are about leaving the EU I'd seriously consider moving to Canada. Why turn and run while a bunch of horrendous gargoyles ruin your country? Why not fight for what's right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 Just now, ml1dch said: Why turn and run while a bunch of horrendous gargoyles ruin your country? Why not fight for what's right? How do you fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: How do you fight? The same way you fight for any political change. The same way the hateful arseholes fought for so long for this to be where we now find ourselves. Fortunately, it won't take us forty years given the hilarious pig's breakfast they are making of their "prize". The mess that they are making is going to be the best advert for scrapping the whole charade. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted March 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Serious question to those that think we are f**ked for decades to come because of Brexit. Would you or have you considered leaving the country? Yes. Not that that has any relevance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: Yes. Not that that has any relevance. It was quite relevant to me trying to understand to what extent some of you are upset by Brexit. Clearly very upset. So not sure why you had to add that line in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts