Refugee crisis

[chrisp65]

I think the comment about Strictly was bang on the money.

If all the newspapers and tv news decide this evening to lead with a story about guide dogs for the blind, then that'll be a 90% drop in concern about Syria.

People will comment on what is put in front of them. Not everyone, just enough for a bandwagon. Then, as said elsewhere previously, once a cause has been built up, it's time to rip it down.

How long before the Sun, Mail and Express have scum 'journalists' out there looking for their first Syrian rapist, benefits cheat or aggressive preacher? You gotta have a narrative arc.

[tonyh29]

OK I'm with you.

But WOW do you not think it might be worth addressing the types of people you are "friends" with on Facebook if this is the type of stuff you are seeing.

I haven't personally seen any kind of flip flopping on that mega scale hence our differing views I guess. Maybe all of your friends are right wing newspaper editors?

 

 

you know how it is , if I delete them and my friend count drops too low as a result I will think I'm not popular 

 

I've said before , I don't think I know anyone that is racist ,just sometimes these "friends"  seem incapable of engaging their brains before they post / speak  ... and I can be just as guilty in that regard .. I sorta know what I'm trying to say in this thread , but it can also be seen as crass and insensitive if taken without context 

[ender4]

the same people on Facebook sharing the baby boy picture last week to show their caring side to all their friends , were the same people a few months ago sending the old "Muslims want to kill our values, share if you agree " shit previously .. and the same people who have now moved onto if we can give homes to refugees why cant we give homes to our brave troops

Can they not think all all three - they aren't mutually exclusive.  They may want to stop Muslim coming to the country (say for religious reasons), but at the same time feel compassion to war refugees.  They also want our troops to be given housing after combat.

I have conflicting thoughts all the time - I would prefer the UK to not get involved in military action abroad at all, ever, except for a direct threat to the UK (or NATO).

But i can't see a way to stop the current refugee crisis without military involvement. Internal confusion reigns in my head 

edit - The quote seems to have attributed to the wrong person!

Edited September 8, 2015 by ender4

[tonyh29]

It's cultural isn't it?

People want to come to England because they have the best chance with the language.

It's naive to think that middle class, wealthy Syrian people are fleeing their homes for a £50 weekly welfare payment.

Pedant ... from my experience in Syria , the majority spoke French  rather than English

 

but that aside although I partly agree with your second statement you also have to look at it that  £50 a week would be like winning the lottery to some of those people ..same reason people coming from Poland etc are happy to work for minimum wage jobs when lots of English people don't appear to want to , same reason people in India are prepared to be inhumanly treated in places like Dubai and Qatar

[villaglint]

I think the comment about Strictly was bang on the money.

If all the newspapers and tv news decide this evening to lead with a story about guide dogs for the blind, then that'll be a 90% drop in concern about Syria.

People will comment on what is put in front of them. Not everyone, just enough for a bandwagon. Then, as said elsewhere previously, once a cause has been built up, it's time to rip it down.

How long before the Sun, Mail and Express have scum 'journalists' out there looking for their first Syrian rapist, benefits cheat or aggressive preacher? You gotta have a narrative arc.

Yes I definitely agree with that.

Tony - last point but the "solution rather than short term fix" is another line that is getting regularly trotted out at the moment. But can't we have a solution AND a short term fix given the severity of the issue?

Especially as you well know a true solution is immensely complex and is going to take years and years/probably generations to arrive.

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2015 by villaglint

[HanoiVillan]

It's cultural isn't it?

People want to come to England because they have the best chance with the language.

It's naive to think that middle class, wealthy Syrian people are fleeing their homes for a £50 weekly welfare payment.

I'm just going to post that link to the Refugee Council report again:

http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/assets/0001/5702/rcchance.pdf

Your first and third sentences are exactly correct, but the second sentence isn't:

'Language was not found to be a significant factor in this research. Nearly half (44 per cent) described their English language skills before coming to the UK as ‘very poor’ and many said that they spoke no English at all when they first arrived.'

(That being said, it's possible that there might be a change in the latest groups of asylum-seekers, which may be more middle-class and with more education in their country of origin, especially Syria, so there might be some truth in it)

[HanoiVillan]

It's cultural isn't it?

People want to come to England because they have the best chance with the language.

It's naive to think that middle class, wealthy Syrian people are fleeing their homes for a £50 weekly welfare payment.

Pedant ... from my experience in Syria , the majority spoke French  rather than English

 

but that aside although I partly agree with your second statement you also have to look at it that  £50 a week would be like winning the lottery to some of those people ..same reason people coming from Poland etc are happy to work for minimum wage jobs when lots of English people don't appear to want to , same reason people in India are prepared to be inhumanly treated in places like Dubai and Qatar

As I said above, this isn't a reason for asylum-seekers to choose coming here. Most have no idea of the particular features of our asylum system until their first encounters with a police officer and subsequently a case-worker. Syria, even in peaceful times, had no benefits system in the way we would understand it. Even the concept of benefits is likely to be completely alien to Syrian asylum-seekers. And actual evidence suggests that almost none know about it before they arrive, and no evidence suggests that they think the UK has a more generous benefits system than any other European country. 

[chrisp65]

 

So you don't think Europe is a basket case then?

 

A quick skim through the last 100 years:

World War I

Flu Pandemic

Another Flu Pandemic (5% of the world population killed)

Great Depression

World War II

The Cold War

Oil Price Quadruples in a month

The Winter of discontent - rubbish on the streets, bodies in the morgues, no electricity

AIDS

BBC celebrities

The Financial Crisis

The Middle East yet again

 

I'm going to stick my neck out and say we'll get through this. Maybe not unchanged, but we'll get through it.

[tonyh29]

I think the comment about Strictly was bang on the money.

If all the newspapers and tv news decide this evening to lead with a story about guide dogs for the blind, then that'll be a 90% drop in concern about Syria.

People will comment on what is put in front of them. Not everyone, just enough for a bandwagon. Then, as said elsewhere previously, once a cause has been built up, it's time to rip it down.

How long before the Sun, Mail and Express have scum 'journalists' out there looking for their first Syrian rapist, benefits cheat or aggressive preacher? You gotta have a narrative arc.

Yes I definitely agree with that.

Tony - last point but the "solution rather than short term fix" is another line that is getting regularly trotted out at the moment. But can't we have a solution AND a short term fix given the severity of the issue?

Especially as you well know a true solution is immensely complex and is going to take years and years/probably generations to arrive.

 

 

 

so you agree when Chris writes it but disagree when i write it ..meh everything is just a  we love Chris bandwagon isn't it 

the solution line may be trotted out but letting 800,000 people into Germany isn't a solution , is it ?  Awol has a better grasp of the military side of things than me so he's better qualified to answer but it can't be that hard to wipe IS out , and then find a local friendly dictator to install and keep everyone in check ..it worked in Saudi , Bahrain and Iraq until SH went rouge   .... least then we can all go back to more important things like moaning that we don't' want any bloody Romanians and Bulgarians coming to our country  ...

[HanoiVillan]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/106477

My head hurts. Over 100,000 people.

As for these people - I'm reminded of the saying that there's no proposition stupid enough that you can't get 10% of the population to agree with it. We'll see how rock-solid their opposition to ALL IMMIGRANTS is when the January transfer-window opens.

[chrisp65]

[StefanAVFC]

My general point (although I admit it was general and not well-researched) is that these troglodytes don't seem to know what they want.

They say refugees are purely coming because they'll get handouts here. Then the same idiots are driving to Calais and having a go at the migrants because they have smart phones and nice shoes. Surely that they have the money to buy nice things means they aren't coming for the minimal benefit payment. Having lived in a country where they do come over here for monetary reasons, electronics are expensive the world around so these people must have money.

[MakemineVanilla]

I think the comment about Strictly was bang on the money.

If all the newspapers and tv news decide this evening to lead with a story about guide dogs for the blind, then that'll be a 90% drop in concern about Syria.

People will comment on what is put in front of them. Not everyone, just enough for a bandwagon. Then, as said elsewhere previously, once a cause has been built up, it's time to rip it down.

How long before the Sun, Mail and Express have scum 'journalists' out there looking for their first Syrian rapist, benefits cheat or aggressive preacher? You gotta have a narrative arc.

Yes I definitely agree with that.

Tony - last point but the "solution rather than short term fix" is another line that is getting regularly trotted out at the moment. But can't we have a solution AND a short term fix given the severity of the issue?

Especially as you well know a true solution is immensely complex and is going to take years and years/probably generations to arrive.

 

 

 

 

the solution line may be trotted out but letting 800,000 people into Germany isn't a solution , is it ?  Awol has a better grasp of the military side of things than me so he's better qualified to answer but it can't be that hard to wipe IS out , and then find a local friendly dictator to install and keep everyone in check ..it worked in Saudi , Bahrain and Iraq until SH went rouge   .... least then we can all go back to more important things like moaning that we don't' want any bloody Romanians and Bulgarians coming to our country  ...

Maybe mass-immigration is a brand new strategy instead of war: instead of sending troops to fight a war you cannot win, you nick the country's population.

Germany had a bit of a shock when they carried out a census in 2011 because it revealed that the population had fallen far more than they thought, they increased their population from 2012 onwards, with immigration

So maybe they have set up an obstacle race across the Med to ensure the quality of their immigrants by eliminating those who could not afford the fare.

They are not interesting in helping refugees in the camps and only the UK has made that a priority, with both cash and their refugee policy.

 

 

 

[StefanAVFC]

 

Knuckledraggers

"In terms of clothing of possessions, you don't look like you have nothing"

Scumbags.

Edited September 8, 2015 by StefanAVFC

[Ikantcpell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQ1a0Cmsk4

Safe in germany but still not very happy, i wonder why, no halal food?

What, exactly, is your point? 

You dont get it do you ?

People fleeing from war, Germany welcomes them in and they behave like this?

[Marka Ragnos]

**** me. What is going on in the world where you can actually find that many people to sign something like that.

Are you serious? What's going on is ordinary, run-o-the-mill Britain. That's how your friends think. That's how your neighbors think. That's probably how your mild-mannered vicar and dentist think when one one's watching. (And if you think I'm picking on the UK, I have no question that here in the States we could come up with an even uglier petition. And don't even get started on Holland.) 

Briton has a long history of rejecting incursions of Mediterranean people. Ask these fellas ... do those look like welcoming faces to you?

The great thing about the British people is that they always, in the end, embrace the newcomer, and Britain becomes even more creative and strong. But I'd be shocked if ordinary British punters WEREN'T whinging about the latest wave of immigrants and guarding their cliffs ...

 

Edited September 8, 2015 by Plastic Man

[Ikantcpell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQ1a0Cmsk4

Safe in germany but still not very happy, i wonder why, no halal food?

Given that Turkish is the largest ethnic minority in Germany I'd suggest it's unlikely there's a lack of halal meat.

Ill-informed racial stereotyping FTL

Oh iam so very sorry, i just have personal experince of muslims in my home town of Malmo behaving just like that or even worse when not getting halal food.

So dont come here with your stupid racist allegations.

[HanoiVillan]

 

Knuckledraggers

"In terms of clothing of possessions, you don't look like you have nothing"

Scumbags.

It turns out it's very easy to win an argument by talking over people who clearly don't speak any real English at all. Who could have guessed?

[villaglint]

so you agree when Chris writes it but disagree when i write it ..meh everything is just a  we love Chris bandwagon isn't it 

the solution line may be trotted out but letting 800,000 people into Germany isn't a solution , is it ?  Awol has a better grasp of the military side of things than me so he's better qualified to answer but it can't be that hard to wipe IS out , and then find a local friendly dictator to install and keep everyone in check ..it worked in Saudi , Bahrain and Iraq until SH went rouge   .... least then we can all go back to more important things like moaning that we don't' want any bloody Romanians and Bulgarians coming to our country  ...

Sorry that wasnt very clear. I agreed with Chris and his "people will comment on what is put in front of them line".  I disagreed with you that a bandwagon is always (and in this instance) a bad thing. I guess what I was trying to say is the bandwagon or as I called it "tipping point" is an essential part of any political change and is morally neutral. It is your view of the issue that colours it.

 

Also with regard to the solution (agreed Awol better placed to comment than me as well) but I dont think IS are the only issue at play. I think it has much deeper religious and geo political roots hence the complexity in sorting it out. I remember watching a documentary on the troubles there before I had ever heard the term IS.

I have actually never read anything from those within the corridors of power as to what exactly is the long term solution for that particular issue. It seems like a oil fire that has been raging a long time which we all hoped would burn out and not start to spread. Seems that wasnt the wisest move but I understand it probably seemed sensisble at the time given our recent forays in the region.

I agree that 800,000 people turning up to Germany is not a solution but it is a short term fix. Though I would prefer to see a wider, more fairly shared and coordinated response that included the US who are hugely on the hook for this too. Though as MNV alluded to above there maybe economic rather than humantiarian reasons why Germany is being so open on this occassion.

[StefanAVFC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQ1a0Cmsk4

Safe in germany but still not very happy, i wonder why, no halal food?

Given that Turkish is the largest ethnic minority in Germany I'd suggest it's unlikely there's a lack of halal meat.

Ill-informed racial stereotyping FTL

Oh iam so very sorry, i just have personal experince of muslims in my home town of Malmo behaving just like that or even worse when not getting halal food.

So dont come here with your stupid racist allegations.

You living in Malmo has nothing to do with your ill-informed racist profiling.