Seat68 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Saw it unfold. It was always going to end badly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Setting out a clear change in direction from the previous leadership. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrusr Posted June 25, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 25, 2020 Good to act quickly, particularly with someone who is quite high profile in the labour party. Sending a very clear message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) So, this is for my education, because I’m clearly still confused by the whole Israel / Jewish comparison and language. I’m struggling with it. The interview that I’ve read (and it’s a later amended version) states that US police went to Israel and learnt this technique. Now I think, the going to Israel for training or a seminar etc is not in dispute. Whether the neck hold was taught there is in dispute. But the word being used is Israel, so I’m struggling with how it’s anti Semitic? Open to answers, I’m guessing right now that accusing anyone in Israel of anything bad is being treated as anti Semitic, when the guidance says nobody should be confusing the state of Israel and anti Semitic sentiments? So it’s a bit of a one way street. Which I know is a conclusion I’ve arrived at before so happy to be corrected if I keep arriving at the wrong conclusion? How can Israel be criticised on anything, if Israel can show the racism card at anything and everything? ** just been on the IHRA site and looked at the working definition of anti-semitism that everyone is supposed to sign up to. Having read the article, I can’t make the link. What am I missing? Edited June 25, 2020 by chrisp65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 25, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 25, 2020 Laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: So, this is for my education, because I’m clearly still confused by the whole Israel / Jewish comparison and language. I’m struggling with it. The interview that I’ve read (and it’s a later amended version) states that US police went to Israel and learnt this technique. Now I think, the going to Israel for training or a seminar etc is not in dispute. Whether the neck hold was taught there is in dispute. But the word being used is Israel, so I’m struggling with how it’s anti Semitic? Open to answers, I’m guessing right now that accusing anyone in Israel of anything bad is being treated as anti Semitic, when the guidance says nobody should be confusing the state of Israel and anti Semitic sentiments? So it’s a bit of a one way street. Which I know is a conclusion I’ve arrived at before so happy to be corrected if I keep arriving at the wrong conclusion? How can Israel be criticised on anything, if Israel can show the racism card at anything and everything? ** just been on the IHRA site and looked at the working definition of anti-semitism that everyone is supposed to sign up to. Having read the article, I can’t make the link. What am I missing? I don't think you're missing anything on the micro question of 'is it antisemitic'. However, I think the macro factors here are things like a] the EHRC report is coming out in the next few weeks and it might be considered good to have an example on the record of the 'zero tolerance' policy in action, and b] Starmer doesn't seem to have been enthusiastic about having Long-Bailey in the shadow cabinet in the first place, and appears only to have done so because of a promise he made during a hustings. It has been very noticeable that she hasn't been put forward for interviews on school reopenings, and that Rachel Reeves, who has a completely different brief, has been giving interviews on the subject with the opposite of Long-Bailey's opinion. So I'm not sure whether the finer points of whether Peake's comments were antisemitic or not are the most important aspect. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) I suppose the claim, made in writing in public, that Peake's words constitute an 'antisemitic conspiracy theory' could theoretically be tested by Peake suing for libel if she so chose? Edited June 25, 2020 by HanoiVillan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 25, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 25, 2020 18 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I suppose the claim, made in writing in public, that Peake's words constitute an 'antisemitic conspiracy theory' could theoretically be tested by Peake suing for libel if she so chose? She absolutely should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted June 25, 2020 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 25, 2020 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: How can Israel be criticised on anything, if Israel can show the racism card at anything and everything? Israel absolutely can be criticised, and is by all sorts of people. Sometimes, when Israel is criticised about bad things its police or military or politicians have done, Israel quite wrongly shouts "anti-semitism" to try and stifle the criticism, or silence the accuser. Sometimes it works, most it doesn't, and it's utterly lamentable and actually puts back the cause of eliminating genuine anti-semitism. Now, in this particular instance, it's that as I understand it Maxine Peake was talking about the killing of the man in America and she (apparently wrongly) said the knee chokehold thing used by the police assailant of the man was taught to the US police by the Israeli secret service. This obviously has the effect of (wrongly) linking the killing of a black American man by the US police to Israel. And this is where it starts to get tricky. If someone wants to criticise Jews, but wishes to do so "below the radar" it's an easy thing to use "Israel" as a code for "the Jews" and then you get "Look , see i was criticising Israel, not the Jews for conspiring..." Like (and I don't mean this as a real world example) if Tommy Robinson said "Pakistan is intolerant of outsiders" - "no, no, I'm not criticising muslims, just, er, y'know...Pakistan's Government". So back to the US police murdering a black man. The assertion that somehow Israel was complicit in it (I mean why even raise Israel here) is completely beyond the scope of the thing. The US police brutality and killings etc. largely take the form of beatings and shootings and so on. the whole BLM protests are about decades of mistreatment and worse of black people. And somehow "Israel" gets dragged into the debate. It's like the hard left types are incapable of not mentioning either Jews directly or indirectly (via the use of "Israel" as a fig leaf). Israel's Government has appeared corrupt (or at least to contain corrupt individuals), it's police and military have done some truly awful things to Palestinians and others. It's stolen land from farmers, cut people off from their livelihoods, attacked unarmed civilians...the list is long and shameful. It's documented fact. On film and in testimony of Israeli military personnel and so on. Criticising that and pointing at evidence is one thing. Bringing up at the very best completely irrelevant (and apparently unfounded) talk of Israeli secret services teaching the police how to do knee choking, when talking about the murder of a black man in the US by a white policeman/men is another. So given Labour's rather poor recent record of unfortunate associations with anti-semites and with their problems with anti-semites amongst their membership, RLB had to be potted. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 I have little doubt it was a convenient way to get Wrong Daily out of the picture. He offered the olive branch after beating her, but I can't imagine he wanted her around for long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Hmmm, I very much get the point about it potentially distracting from the real and current issue of police racism, it appears Amnesty and Amnesty USA have been writing about Israeli secret service training of US police forces for about several years. Including privately funded trips to Israel for the police, funded by Jewish Institute for Security Affairs, amongst others. So I get that its a distraction from the here and now. But if it’s a conspiracy theory, it’s one that Amnesty are peddling. Amnesty Quote Baltimore law enforcement officials, along with hundreds of others from Florida, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Arizona, Connecticut, New York, Massachusetts, North Carolina, Georgia, Washington state as well as the DC Capitol police have all traveled to Israel for training. Thousands of others have received training from Israeli officials here in the U.S. Many of these trips are taxpayer funded while others are privately funded. Since 2002, the Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee’s Project Interchange and the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs have paid for police chiefs, assistant chiefs and captains to train in Israel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 25, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2020 18 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: it’s one that Amnesty are peddling. No mention of chokehold knee thing in there. It’s kind of important. Because it’s the “reason” she mentioned Israel (we must assume). I mean “white US cop kills black man and some different US cops went to Israel” is even more tenuous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, blandy said: No mention of chokehold knee thing in there. It’s kind of important. Because it’s the “reason” she mentioned Israel (we must assume). I mean “white US cop kills black man and some different US cops went to Israel” is even more tenuous. Yep, I do get that, it’s a poor time to start linking and taking leaps. It diverts from the here and now, completely get that. Not helpful that its a rant by an ex commie luvvie. Little Ms Corbyn is clearly a bit of a toxic brand and gave Starmer the opportunity. But also, I didn’t previously know there was any link at all, with Israeli supporting pressure groups in the US privately funding training of US police in Israel and by Israeli’s on US soil. The next very little step from there, for me, it would be beyond my belief that intelligence services wouldn’t be involved in that in any way. So here and now, not helpful. Interesting in the longer term, absolutely definitely. Anti Semitic conspiracy theory worthy of instant dismissal..... hmmmm. There’s a danger of replaying that whole bloody episode again and again, so I can see why he did it and why the other Labour are protesting about it. Quite telling that Jon Lansman has waded in. Edited June 25, 2020 by chrisp65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 25, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 25, 2020 I think you can legitimately note that in a nation where a man was killed by a police officer using an obscene technique to 'restrain' him, officers have been sent for training to another nation that it's notoriously heavy handed with it's actions against 'wrongdoers' and effectively views itself as a warzone. Dismissing it as anti-Semitism is utter, utter, utter arse water. The sacking is entirely about ridding the Shadow Cabinet of a pesky reminder of the hated former regime and looking decisive on the issue. And that's it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Anti Semitic conspiracy theory worthy of instant dismissal..... hmmmm. Probably 'hmmm' were it not also politically very helpful. He will come out of this less popular with left-wing of the Labour Party and more popular with the public. Overall, that's a net positive. Also, it adds another arrow to his quiver against the sleaze-ridden degenerates in Government. Labour deals with internal problems, the Conservatives will allow the worst Government in living memory to do whatever they want with no consequences. I mean, I'd have thought all wings of the party would have instantly used it to contrast how the respective leaders deal with party management and how terrible the Government is, rather than furiously rallying around a second tier shadow cabinet member. But what do I know. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 25, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2020 6 minutes ago, ml1dch said: I mean, I'd have thought all wings of the party would have instantly used it to contrast how the respective leaders deal with party management and how terrible the Government is, rather than furiously rallying around a second tier shadow cabinet member. This is Labour you're talking about? united front? Don't be silly If it was a Party of a hundreds members, it would still have two hundred opinons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Collateral damage for the rebuilding of brand Labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted June 25, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2020 Expedient rather than necessary. Right turn Clyde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 25, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2020 Starmer had no option really Regardless of whether this is or isn't AS, as soon as the BoD etc started jumping over it, he had to act given that it was one of his core pledges to rid the party of AS. If he hadn't acted, he'd have been pilloried by the MSM If RLB was a true supporter of the Labour Party and wanted Labour to really succeed she'd have come up with some form of apology not a "clarification", she'd have undone the retweet (with comment), which she still hasn't and not then gone on to say Starmer had already made his mind up Ditto John McDonnell et al. they don't want the Labour Party to succeeed, thats never really been their goal, their goal is socialist agenda, their socialist agenda and nothing else Part of me actully suspects that the whole thing has been somewhat planned, its almost too perfect, Leftie Lovable yet Looney Peake, says something, RLB (pretty much already sidelined) retweets it and creates a storm in a teacup, refuses to do as Party Leader asks .... inevitable big huge debate just before the review of AS in the Labour Party is due. If we didn't live in a period where politics is more barmy than political satire, ths would stand out like a sore thumb Like I said, ignore the issue for a sec. Party Leader does what he has to do, he really has no option. Education Secretary does exactly what she shouldn't do. If this was almost any other issue, looking at it in those simple terms it would be obvious what was going on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 **** ridiculous decision. I think intentional. Labour does not want to have its members being all democratic and they know this will alienate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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