blandy Posted June 23, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 23, 2020 Labour did not have a remain policy FFS! They had a leave deal and referendum on it policy Quote Labour will give the people the final say on Brexit. Within three months of coming to power, a Labour government will secure a sensible deal. And within six months, we will put that deal to a public vote alongside the option to remain. A Labour government will implement whatever the people decide. https://labour.org.uk/manifesto-2019/the-final-say-on-brexit/ I take your earlier point that it wasn't Brexity enough for some, but it was undeniably Brexity - "we will negotiate a deal to leave" While it's good for you to reply to my witterings, it's not just us in here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 44 minutes ago, blandy said: Labour did not have a remain policy FFS! They had a leave deal and referendum on it policy It was perceived - by Leave voters, who then voted Conservative - as a Remain policy (and let's get a bit real here, they aren't completely wrong, most of the shadow frontbench, including the current leader, had committed to campaigning to remain in said hypothetical referendum). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 48 minutes ago, blandy said: While it's good for you to reply to my witterings, it's not just us in here. I'm a bit confused by what you mean by this, but sure, we should probably stop here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 23, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: It was perceived - by Leave voters, who then voted Conservative - as a Remain policy Sure. And it was perceived by remain voters, as a leave policy, (and let's get a bit real here when the manifesto says in black and white "a Labour government will secure a deal" and their leader kept saying they will get a deal to leave" they weren't wrong). Hence the loss of 1 million remainer voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 23, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I'm a bit confused by what you mean by this, but sure, we should probably stop here. I mean it's admirable for you to "agree to disagree" and leave the "conversation", but that if others wish to join it they are welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 You know, perhaps I’m wide of the mark here but I always took Labours non-commitment to being leave or remain as a measured and correct position to take. In my opinion, one of the reasons many people voted leave was because the serving govt at the time were so staunchly pushing for remain, it became a protest vote, an opportunity for perceived change. Now I said and thought all along that a situation such as this should never have become about taking sides (although it’s seemingly become modern human nature to do so), and that Cameron et al should not have so openly declared what they thought we should all do. What should have happened is a formal review should have taken place by experts who could then present different models of future economic growth both through leaving or remaining within the EU and then let people make an informed decisions, instead of just drawing a line in the sand and saying well if you’re on that side then you’re with the govt, if you’re on this side you want change. So I actually thought Labour/Corbyns position on the matter was correct but all trivial now of course. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, blandy said: I mean it's admirable for you to "agree to disagree" and leave the "conversation", but that if others wish to join it they are welcome. For the record, I'm not telling anyone else they can't participate, and don't think anything I said suggested that I was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 23, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 23, 2020 No no, get your whip and prostrate yourself before all in a feeble attempt to show shame and contrition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Everyone here has set out their stalls before, and there's enough new shit to get wound up about to keep reprising the old shit there's pages of already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 I agree there’s plenty of new stuff and little point in replaying the last war. But Labour were leave, to re write them as remain is proper weird. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: I agree there’s plenty of new stuff and little point in replaying the last war. But Labour were leave, to re write them as remain is proper weird. I'm not :head banging against a brick wall emoji: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Brexit is as much a culture war as it is an economic or sociological debate. The centre left parties in major western societies are finding themselves at a crossroads. Their traditional voter base used to be unionised workers from blue collar jobs, however in recent years their base has shifted to towards an educated urban globalist demographic. The Brexit debate pulled the U.K. Labour Party in two different directions, between their traditional base and their new supporters. Unfortunately they tried to ride both horses and it ripped them in two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted June 23, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, LondonLax said: The centre left parties in major western societies are finding themselves at a crossroads. Their traditional voter base used to be unionised workers from blue collar jobs, however in recent years their base has shifted to towards an educated urban globalist demographic. I don't think there are any centre left parties in most Western Societies now - the prevailing economic power has moved the needle so far right than a centre left government is dismissed as the lunatic fringe of the crazy left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 23, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 23, 2020 28 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I don't think there are any centre left parties in most Western Societies now Where do you think there still are some? I ask because (and I'm no expert) I perceive there to be CL parties in most western countries, so just curious really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 I know its early days but im quite liking starmer so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 8 hours ago, blandy said: I mean it's admirable for you to "agree to disagree" and leave the "conversation", but that if others wish to join it they are welcome. Ill join and agree on your stance on what labour's strategy for brexit was. It was a flipping mess 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 23, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: It was a flipping mess I disagree, flipping something requires a degree of organisation. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted June 23, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, blandy said: Where do you think there still are some? I ask because (and I'm no expert) I perceive there to be CL parties in most western countries, so just curious really. I think the compass has moved so far that people see centre right as centre left - it's certainly where Labour are heading. Spain has Podemos I guess. Actually, thinking about it we still have the Greens There aren't many in a position where they're likely to have influence any time soon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 23, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 23, 2020 Why do people keep refering to politics on this linear left to right scale? It's just not remotely true nor is it even helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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