The Tim Sherwood Thread

[Eames]

What are all these "Plan B's" then guys?

 

First half we were on the back foot and riding our luck. Would you have changed anything after 10 mins? 20 mins? or 30 mins? If so what?

 

We almost got to half time at 0-0. Who knows, the way the game was going, maybe we would have parked the bus 2nd half? We were clearly being outplayed by an on fire Arsenal.

 

The 2nd goal was a killer-It came from nowhere and obviously blew the half time re-think out of the water. At this stage, we had to go offensive. Bacuna & Gabby were the obvious changes. So we changed personnel and changed formation. What other options were there? Joe Cole or Sinclair for Grealish maybe?

 

I honestly don't see what we could have done that wasn't done.

You've given one suggestion in your own post.  

[Butterfingers]

 

 

 

But then you have some who are criticising Sherwood for not playing 2 up top, or with wingers. Its hilarious.

Then you have someone who went there expecting to lose but is still criticising because we didn't lose well.

You really couldn't make this stuff up.

People are criticising him for not trying something different. That is just one option.

Put it this way, if you could go back in time and change our lineup and approach, would you keep it exactly the same?

The second bit you actually have made up, which makes your last sentence quite ironic.

You've twisted Stefan's words and you know it.

How have I twisted his words? He didn't expect to win so presumably, if we'd have kept the score down to 1 or 2, he'd have been happy? What else does he have to moan about?

I'm still waiting for someone to come out and tell me what Sherwood could have done differently. I don't mean beforehand, I mean during the game and at what point.

I've already explained this quite clearly but I'm happy to do so again for you.

I didn't EXPECT us to win. I EXPECTED us to have a go and a fight and maybe, just maybe we could sneak a win. What actually happened was a pathetic, humiliating display in that we were publicly embarrassed on national TV.

If you could stop twisting my words now that would be grand. Cheers

 

So I was correct in my first description then?

 

If we had lost well, you would have been happy and wouldn't be blaming Sherwood?

[Chap of Steel]

I've just sat and read through this over lunch and can't believe some of the stuff I've read - although I do echo concerns regarding Sherwood's first transfer window.

As disappointing as the final was I don't think it mean's we'll be doomed next season. If you have inconsistent players you get inconsistent results which is what we've seen over the last couple of games.

Might it be that the players simply ran out of steam as it looked like relegation had been avoided? Possibly.

While Sherwood's digs at players are perhaps unwise it's a bit over the top to compare him to di Canio.

Personally I'm not too worried about next season just yet. We know Villa have a good scouting system so I don't think it will be a case of Sherwood raiding Tottenham's reserves.

He's definitely earned a season to build a team and I can't understand why people are downplaying the achievement of keeping us in the Premier League. After the Hull City loss I thought we were gone...

[bobzy]

 

 

You're taking it personally.

 

Eames suggested that "lesser" teams have beaten Arsenal because of good tactical performances.  I'm in agreeance with this, but don't think a cup final is the place to do the same thing as, for example, Swansea - who recently beat Arsenal as mentioned.

 

Perhaps I didn't explain it well.  Basically, this things are more likely to happen in a league game where you can get "a result" from playing negatively.  In a cup final, I'd assume it less likely as you basically have to win.

 

What a strange statement. 

 

I'd say an FA Cup Final is EXACTLY the time to do what Swansea did to Arsenal. Performance/Quality of football means nothing if you win. No one cares if you bore the arse off fans/media/opponents if you win. 

 

20 years ago Arsenal fans were chanting "1-0 to the Arsenal" not caring that it was awful to watch. 

 

 

Nah, not for me.

 

The likelihood is that Arsenal win in any case (I think we'd all agree with this).  Not "having a go" at all would've been far worse than playing with intent.  Obviously, in hindsight, we could've done almost anything differently and it would've been better .  But as an initial setup, people wouldn't be at all happy with that.

[StefanAVFC]

But then you have some who are criticising Sherwood for not playing 2 up top, or with wingers. Its hilarious.

Then you have someone who went there expecting to lose but is still criticising because we didn't lose well.

You really couldn't make this stuff up.

People are criticising him for not trying something different. That is just one option.

Put it this way, if you could go back in time and change our lineup and approach, would you keep it exactly the same?

The second bit you actually have made up, which makes your last sentence quite ironic.

You've twisted Stefan's words and you know it.

How have I twisted his words? He didn't expect to win so presumably, if we'd have kept the score down to 1 or 2, he'd have been happy? What else does he have to moan about?

I'm still waiting for someone to come out and tell me what Sherwood could have done differently. I don't mean beforehand, I mean during the game and at what point.

I've already explained this quite clearly but I'm happy to do so again for you.

I didn't EXPECT us to win. I EXPECTED us to have a go and a fight and maybe, just maybe we could sneak a win. What actually happened was a pathetic, humiliating display in that we were publicly embarrassed on national TV.

If you could stop twisting my words now that would be grand. Cheers

So I was correct in my first description then?

If we had lost well, you would have been happy and wouldn't be blaming Sherwood?

Lost well? Just a way of you twisting words again.

If we had given it a go and genuinely looked like we could have won then I'd have nothing to complain about no. That's not an outlandish statement.

As it was, we didn't and we were humiliated.

[Stevo985]

 

 

 

But then you have some who are criticising Sherwood for not playing 2 up top, or with wingers. Its hilarious.

 

 

Then you have someone who went there expecting to lose but is still criticising because we didn't lose well.

 

You really couldn't make this stuff up.

 

People are criticising him for not trying something different. That is just one option.

Put it this way, if you could go back in time and change our lineup and approach, would you keep it exactly the same?

 

The second bit you actually have made up, which makes your last sentence quite ironic.

You've twisted Stefan's words and you know it.

 

How have I twisted his words? He didn't expect to win so presumably, if we'd have kept the score down to 1 or 2, he'd have been happy? What else does he have to moan about?

 

I'm still waiting for someone to come out and tell me what Sherwood could have done differently. I don't mean beforehand, I mean during the game and at what point.

 

You can have that debate with Stefan.

 

People have given you plenty of options. just because you keep shooting them down doesn't mean the options aren't there.

 

Here's some:

 

pull Grealish and N'Zogbia deeper to make a "proper" midfield 5 and move 2 of them out wide. Try and stretch the game to the wings and feed Benteke from there. We played incredibly narrow which has worked previously but didn't on Saturday. That could have been done at any time.

 

Shifted to a diamond and pushed N'Zogbia up front. Try and get our fullbacks to provide the width whilst keeping 4 midfielders centrally to try and win the midfield battle. N'Zogbia could have been changed for Gabby to try something different. System change could have been done at any time, I'd have left the personnel change until half time.

Gone 5 at the back, with Baker, Vlaar and Okore centrebacks and two wing backs. Bacuna and Richardson. This would have been something to do from the start, or as a last resort with the wing backs pushed on significantly.

 

Gone 4-4-2 with the defence playing deeper and Westwood committed to a DM role. Would have used this as a last resort, certainly wouldn't have started that way.

 

 

That's a random four options off the top of my head. 

Would any of them worked? Who knows. I'm not a football manager. Managers get paid to make those decisions and try something that might work.

The point is there are a thousand ways to play football. If something isn't working then persisting with it for 90 minutes is the wrong thing to do.

 

You didn't answer my question so I'll ask it again. Would you have kept everything the same? 

[Stevo985]

 

 

You're taking it personally.

 

Eames suggested that "lesser" teams have beaten Arsenal because of good tactical performances.  I'm in agreeance with this, but don't think a cup final is the place to do the same thing as, for example, Swansea - who recently beat Arsenal as mentioned.

 

Perhaps I didn't explain it well.  Basically, this things are more likely to happen in a league game where you can get "a result" from playing negatively.  In a cup final, I'd assume it less likely as you basically have to win.

 

Not sure how I'm taking it personally?

 

I don't agree. I think a cup final is exaclty where you need to pull something out of the bag and get a result. We weren't just there for a day out.

 

But my point was you used a straw man to argue against this tactic.

Playing more defensivley does not mean not playing Benteke, which seemed to be the comparison you made.

[Dodgyknees]

 

Brilliant.

From the messiah to 'should be sacked', not the first villa manager to be outclassed by arsenal and won't be the last either.

Who's calling for him to be sacked?

 

Why are people getting outraged about things that aren't happening?

 

 

Because it backs up their point that he is being unfairly treated. Of course, pointing out that he has made mistakes is a big no no.

[AntrimBlack]

There is a positive to this. You know what they say - `no-one remembers the runner-up'.

[Folski]

I didn't think Arsenal were great Saturday, dont get me wrong they were good but we were woeful. I was sat watching the warm up, must have been 40+ shots on Guzan, I can remember 1 goal, 2 saves, and everything else was over the bar or wide, think Jack hit the post with one actually.

[StefanAVFC]

I didn't think Arsenal were great Saturday, dont get me wrong they were good but we were woeful. I was sat watching the warm up, must have been 40+ shots on Guzan, I can remember 1 goal, 2 saves, and everything else was over the bar or wide, think Jack hit the post with one actually.

I was watching this thinking we were screwed

[Butterfingers]

 

 

 

 

But then you have some who are criticising Sherwood for not playing 2 up top, or with wingers. Its hilarious.

 

 

Then you have someone who went there expecting to lose but is still criticising because we didn't lose well.

 

You really couldn't make this stuff up.

 

People are criticising him for not trying something different. That is just one option.

Put it this way, if you could go back in time and change our lineup and approach, would you keep it exactly the same?

 

The second bit you actually have made up, which makes your last sentence quite ironic.

You've twisted Stefan's words and you know it.

 

How have I twisted his words? He didn't expect to win so presumably, if we'd have kept the score down to 1 or 2, he'd have been happy? What else does he have to moan about?

 

I'm still waiting for someone to come out and tell me what Sherwood could have done differently. I don't mean beforehand, I mean during the game and at what point.

 

You can have that debate with Stefan.

 

People have given you plenty of options. just because you keep shooting them down doesn't mean the options aren't there.

 

Here's some:

 

pull Grealish and N'Zogbia deeper to make a "proper" midfield 5 and move 2 of them out wide. Try and stretch the game to the wings and feed Benteke from there. We played incredibly narrow which has worked previously but didn't on Saturday. That could have been done at any time.

 

Shifted to a diamond and pushed N'Zogbia up front. Try and get our fullbacks to provide the width whilst keeping 4 midfielders centrally to try and win the midfield battle. N'Zogbia could have been changed for Gabby to try something different. System change could have been done at any time, I'd have left the personnel change until half time.

Gone 5 at the back, with Baker, Vlaar and Okore centrebacks and two wing backs. Bacuna and Richardson. This would have been something to do from the start, or as a last resort with the wing backs pushed on significantly.

 

Gone 4-4-2 with the defence playing deeper and Westwood committed to a DM role. Would have used this as a last resort, certainly wouldn't have started that way.

 

 

That's a random four options off the top of my head. 

Would any of them worked? Who knows. I'm not a football manager. Managers get paid to make those decisions and try something that might work.

The point is there are a thousand ways to play football. If something isn't working then persisting with it for 90 minutes is the wrong thing to do.

 

You didn't answer my question so I'll ask it again. Would you have kept everything the same? 

 

Some of your options there are in complete contrast with each other and all with the benefit of hindsight. The second option is more or less what happened when Gabby came on.

 

In hindsight, I think we would have stood a better chance parking the bus and gambling on a breakaway or pens. I believed in the team though and would have more or less gone with what was picked, other than bring in Guzan and Bacuna.

 

The key to it for me were the timing of the goals. I probably wouldn't have changed much first half at 0-0 and concentrated on getting to HT. TS did this which obviously meant few attacks. At 0-0, I would probably have bought Sanchez on for either N'Zog or Grealish and would have considered the best way of winning was to park the bus. It was pointless trying to trade blows with Arsenal in that form. As it was, we were 1-0 down so the obvious choice was Gabby. In fact it really was our only plan b, looking at the bench. Whatever change (if any) that was made at half time didn't matter because they scored so soon after the break. Having being outplayed, it didn't matter what we did. But Gabby & Bacuna were the obvious ones.

 

We really were second best on the day. Disappointing but somewhat typical.

[hippo]

Agree that Arsenal are a good side. Worth considering that Ozil and Sanchez's combined fees will get you 10 Bentekes. 

 

However - "lesser" teams have beaten Arsenal this season - because the tactics and performances have been good enough to allow them to do so - that is the difference. 

 

Didn't reading take them to extra time in the semi ?

[Villanun]

Some of your options there are in complete contrast with each other and all with the benefit of hindsight. The second option is more or less what happened when Gabby came on.

"Give me different options. No, these different options are too dissimilar."

And shame on you, Stevo, for being unable to alter the flow of time.

[Butterfingers]

 

Some of your options there are in complete contrast with each other and all with the benefit of hindsight. The second option is more or less what happened when Gabby came on.

"Give me different options. No, these different options are too dissimilar."

And shame on you, Stevo, for being unable to alter the flow of time.

 

 

 

Some of your options there are in complete contrast with each other and all with the benefit of hindsight. The second option is more or less what happened when Gabby came on.

"Give me different options. No, these different options are too dissimilar."

And shame on you, Stevo, for being unable to alter the flow of time.

 

Play with width, play narrow.

 

The 5-3-2 one is actually a good shout (with the benefit of hindsight)

 

Some of you people really need to wake up and smell the coffee though. We were not good enough, we were beaten by the better side and like it or not the 2 goals either side of half time had a massive impact on changing things around.

 

And while I'm on one, can you people please,please stop talking about this bloody high line at Southampton. We set up 3 of the goals on a plate for them, it had nothing to do with where the defenders were holding their line.

[Stevo985]

Some of your options there are in complete contrast with each other and all with the benefit of hindsight.

So? The whole point is that they are in contrast with each other. They're all different. They show different approaches we might have taken. I'm not suggesting we did them all. But trying anything different would have been nice

Yes it's with the benefit of hindsight. Managers get paid to be able to see things that the rest of us only see with hindsight.

What didn't require hindsight was being sat there after half an hour with everyone around me saying it wasn't working. It didn't take hindsight to realise something needed to change. But nothing did

 

 

In hindsight, I think we would have stood a better chance parking the bus and gambling on a breakaway or pens. I believed in the team though and would have more or less gone with what was picked, other than bring in Guzan and Bacuna.

 

The key to it for me were the timing of the goals. I probably wouldn't have changed much first half at 0-0 and concentrated on getting to HT. TS did this which obviously meant few attacks. At 0-0, I would probably have bought Sanchez on for either N'Zog or Grealish and would have considered the best way of winning was to park the bus. It was pointless trying to trade blows with Arsenal in that form. As it was, we were 1-0 down so the obvious choice was Gabby. In fact it really was our only plan b, looking at the bench. Whatever change (if any) that was made at half time didn't matter because they scored so soon after the break. Having being outplayed, it didn't matter what we did. But Gabby & Bacuna were the obvious ones.

So basically what you're saying here is there's quite a bit that could have been done differently.

So why are you getting so annoyed at people thinking we should have changed things when you appear to agree?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Stevo985

[HanoiVillan]

What are all these "Plan B's" then guys?

 

First half we were on the back foot and riding our luck. Would you have changed anything after 10 mins? 20 mins? or 30 mins? If so what?

 

We almost got to half time at 0-0. Who knows, the way the game was going, maybe we would have parked the bus 2nd half? We were clearly being outplayed by an on fire Arsenal.

 

The 2nd goal was a killer-It came from nowhere and obviously blew the half time re-think out of the water. At this stage, we had to go offensive. Bacuna & Gabby were the obvious changes. So we changed personnel and changed formation. What other options were there? Joe Cole or Sinclair for Grealish maybe?

 

I honestly don't see what we could have done that wasn't done.

 

Not trying to pile on, but what was the half-time re-think? I saw the same players line up in the same formation. 

[sexbelowsound]

Play with width, play narrow.

 

 

The 5-3-2 one is actually a good shout (with the benefit of hindsight)

 

Some of you people really need to wake up and smell the coffee though. We were not good enough, we were beaten by the better side and like it or not the 2 goals either side of half time had a massive impact on changing things around.

 

And while I'm on one, can you people please,please stop talking about this bloody high line at Southampton. We set up 3 of the goals on a plate for them, it had nothing to do with where the defenders were holding their line.

 

 

You asked for different options and he gave them. What does it matter if they are contrasting in styles? The point is they are viable options that we could have tried.

[Stevo985]

 

 

And while I'm on one, can you people please,please stop talking about this bloody high line at Southampton. We set up 3 of the goals on a plate for them, it had nothing to do with where the defenders were holding their line.

 

You're making yourself look silly now.

 

If you can't see the high line at Southampton was a problem then you need to watch the game again.

 

Take out the goals if you like. The high line was a problem numerous times before they scored their first goal.

 

I don't blame Sherwood for that, fwiw.

[Butterfingers]

 

What are all these "Plan B's" then guys?

 

First half we were on the back foot and riding our luck. Would you have changed anything after 10 mins? 20 mins? or 30 mins? If so what?

 

We almost got to half time at 0-0. Who knows, the way the game was going, maybe we would have parked the bus 2nd half? We were clearly being outplayed by an on fire Arsenal.

 

The 2nd goal was a killer-It came from nowhere and obviously blew the half time re-think out of the water. At this stage, we had to go offensive. Bacuna & Gabby were the obvious changes. So we changed personnel and changed formation. What other options were there? Joe Cole or Sinclair for Grealish maybe?

 

I honestly don't see what we could have done that wasn't done.

 

Not trying to pile on, but what was the half-time re-think? I saw the same players line up in the same formation. 

 

How should I know-I wasn't in there. Do you think they all got their mobiles out & started taking selfies or playing games? Of course there was a re-think at half time. Give the bloke a bit of credit ffs. Do you think he just told them to catty on regardless?

 

The 2nd goal a few minutes in changed it anyway so whatever was said, needed to be changed again.

 

Not every team who goes in 0-1 at half time suddenly changes for the 2nd half you know.