Our midfield problem

[Mic09]

Just a little notice before we begin, no Lambert/Lerner hating please!

After Bayern lost their game against Wolfburg and drew against Shalke, a lot of the German media suggest that one of Bayern's problems this year is the midfield partnership of Shwainsteiger & Alonso.
As we all know, a few months back Paul Lambert had a little trip to germany to discuss football with Guardiola, and since then we have noticed a Bayern/Barca caricature of football being performed by the Claret and Blue; a lot of passing, keeping possetion and playing from the back.

Shwainsteiger has only come into play recently after the injury earlier in the season, and since then Bayern hasn't clicked the way the used to (another example being their loss to Man City).

It seems to me that as much as I love Sanchez and Westwood, we should learn from other peoples mistakes and never play with two holding midfielders. Adding to that, Cleverley is almost non existant and Delph has not impressed this season so far. We are playing our midfield way too deep, which of course has improved our defence (since there is no space to crack open a 6/7 person defense) but has limited us going forward.

To add to my argument, Benteke, our shining star has become a little bit like... Lewandowski. Amazing player, but something just went missing all of a sudden. In my opinion, it's the deep lying midfield which does not supply him as much as they did at Borussia.

Cleverley is not a bad player, neither is Delph, Sanchez, or any other of our CM. It's just the football that we are trying to play is limiting them

What are your thoughts on this? Have we fallen into the trap of trying to imitate the best in the game and forgetting that even Guardiola can make mistakes?

[slovenian]

different planet, different problems

[Stevo985]

Our midfield problem has been that it usually consists of 4 defensive or deep lying midfielders, Sanchez, Westwood, Cleverley and Delph.

 

In my opinion, Delph, Westwood and Cleverley all play the same position, albeit Delph plays it differently from the other two.

That position is the 3rd man in a midfield 3, if that makes sense. An attacking midfielder, a defensive midfielder and one of those three.

 

So it doesn't really matter how good they are, they're all the same kind of midfielder, and none of them are suited to be our link man between midfield and attack.

 

The addition of Gil and Sinclair should help massively.

Whlst I'm not excusing the dismal arsenal performance or the impending spanking at the hands of Chelsea, it's unfortunate that we haven't had an easier game to bed in the new midfield which will, imo, consist of either

 

---------Sanchez

 

---Westwood-Delph

Gil-------------------Sinclair

 

or

 

-----------Sanchez

 

---------Delph-Gil

Sinclair--------------Weimann

 

 

Initially I thought it would be the latter, but I'm beginning to think Gil will stay wide so it will be the former.

 

I do think that eventually, this will lead to a much more balanced midfield and ultimately, goals.
I just hope 1. I'm right and 2. it's not too late!

[ROTTERDAM1982]

 We haven't got a midfielder who likes to get in the box, or makes runs of CB, a la Platt or Ian Taylor.Sanchez and Delph , with Gil just in front, is a good start, Tim Cahill would have been a good short term buy, and Alli a good long term buy, but we have much of a muchness in midfield unfortunately.

 

 Bad recruitment imho

[Biskitt]

Good post. I think we've got several issues at the moment.

- Lack of movement from the front players ( particularly Benteke and Gabby )

- Slow build up play, allows opposition to get back into defensive shape

- Lack of players willing to run at players and open up space ( Gil and Sinclair should help )

With regards to the midfield, When was the last time you saw one of our midfield run beyond the striker or really get into the box and try and make something happen ? I honestly can't remember seeing any of our midfielders doing that this season. For all his faults, at least this was something KEA tried !

There just seems to be a compete lack of fluidity at the moment and everyone is just stuck to their position and therefore easier to mark.

Whilst I admire the fact were trying to play a more possession based game, i think we need to try and mix it up a lot more

[Zatman]

Our midfield has no movement or intelligence and has been for a long time. They also have zero goal threat or creativity

[Kingman]

We only have one problem in midfield… Paul Lambert!

[Zatman]

We only have one problem in midfield… Paul Lambert!

 

good point, if only he came out of retirement and picked himself

[briny_ear]

It's a sort of nature v nurture debate, i.e. do our  midfielders lack the skills, agility, footballing instinct, etc., to be able to get into threatening forward positions or is it just that the coaching and style of play is wrong and they are not being encouraged to develop a more progressive approach. 

 

We have a midfield full of internationals and one player who has been coached at one of the top premier league clubs so I'm not inclined to accept they don't have it in them. They may be mostly players whose strengths are in defensive midfield play but I refuse to accept they couldn't be coached to move the ball forward a bit more, get closer to the forwards, and create more accurate chances.

 

So for me it is more down to the coaching and system than to the players' capacity.

 

Frankly, I think this pedestrian, cautious, backward/sideways moving passing style that Lambert has now introduced should be torn up and he should go back to the drawing board.

Edited February 4, 2015 by briny_ear

[Nicho]

Theres a few of things wrong with our midfield and the ability of the players isnt one IMO. 

      - Too deep

      - Too central

      - No width

      - Full backs going forward

 

 

We sit too close to our own defense isolating our attacking players, meaning that when the attack gets the ball there is no support and we get swamped. When we deliver balls into them they are crowed out or the defending team has had time to organise. 

 

We play 3 midfielders and they all sit in the centre, 5 yard passes are great if you can do it quickly and into space but all of our midfielders are in the same place. Can only pass it in between themselves so much before they get tackled or closed down and make the wrong decision. Hence we end up playing useless balls about.

 

Absolutely no width in the middle portion of the pitch. We cant build attacks and we dont create play that has supporting players. We let one break away (Delph or Gill for example)

and just hold position. There are no useful overlaps or stretching of space, pulling the opposition out of shape. 

 

Our full backs seem to be the main source of forward momentum, creativity and crossing and this is by design. Full backs can certainly able to do this but need to be as support, we sacrifice creative impetus in the midfield for defensive stability whereas the full backs should just be told to hold and let the midfield be free. Full backs are often in space and can be a good outlet especially when being defensive but ours are too high up the pitch. When we look for them they are in dangerous positions to receive the ball so we give it back to the center backs or pass it around our deep lying congested midfield until we stifle the attack or lose the ball. 

 

I think 3 central defenders needs to be stopped. 1 up front with an attacking mid, 2 forwards/wingers who drop back when needed and 2 central midfielders capable of sitting when necessary and delivering the ball to attacking players quickly and with intent when needed.

 

Sort it out Paul!

[markavfc40]

So for me it is more down to the coaching and system than to the players' capacity.

 

Frankly, I think this pedestrian, cautious, backward/sideways moving passing style that Lambert has now introduced should be torn up and he should go back to the drawing board.

 

I think you are spot on. I think it it more down to how the manager is asking them to play than it is about a lack of attacking ability/instinct in the players.

I think Delph is a natural forward thinking player. He came here as a young lad with a reputation as someone who would chip in with a fair few goals. Whilst he has never really shown that here I think the goals he scored last season against Albion, Chelsea and Rotherham which were all scored inside the box after being involved in the build ups show that the lad doesn't lack in any attacking instinct.

The only really naturally defensive centre midfielder I would say is Sanchez and at a push Westwood. Almost every game though we play three central midfielders and in fact sometimes four and they all find themselves protecting our back 4 with in yards of each other spread out in a very narrow area of the pitch. I think that is what they are being told to do as the manager is ultra cautious.

A similar thing is happening with what are supposed to be our wide forwards. Be it Gabby, Weimann or NZogbia. Whenever we have lined up in a supposed 4-3-3 whoever as played as the two wide players either side of Benteke has spent more time in their own half helping to protect our fullback than in the opposing teams half. That is certainly not the natural game/ instinct to defend of Gabby, Weimann or NZogbia it is clearly how the manager is asking them to play.

Edited February 4, 2015 by markavfc40

[foreveryoung]

The midfield have been coached to prioritise defensive capabilities over attacking intent, it so much shows with every midfield player. Scared to make a run forward, passing back, sideways when challenged. A weak Delph, Westwood. Watch how Gill plays, (Lambert has not had chance to coach him yet) gets the ball goes forward, crosses forward, diagonal balls. Its rare you see our midfield make a run straight into the box. Hutton and Sissokho also playing as forward wingers completely missing out the midfield has always baffled me, strange tactically since they are both shit crossers of the ball. Why do they not stay back and use the midfield??

[avfc_in_essex]

Totally agree that this is a coaching issue. If you take our midfield, there is no forward running made from any of CM's, whether this is to receive a through ball or to try and get on the end of a cross. And due to neither Hutton or Cissohko being particularly good at crossing the ball, we create very little.

We have four CM's who are all capable of playing at this level. However, they have been limited in their play, and only Delph has shown any real quality. And even then, how many goals? How many assists?

I would like to see Westwood get forward more often as he's the only one with the ability to play a quick, forward pass that could split defences. Would also like to see Delph played in a wider forward position. The goal he scored against West Brom last season, it's very rare for Delph to even have the ball in those types of positions.

I'm convinced if any one of Delph, Westwood or Cleverley were to play under a more forward thinking manager (Martinez, Koeman, Pochettino), they would have more assists and goals to their name. Unfortunately, all the signs point back Lambert and his limited tactics.

Only time will tell if Gil and Sinclair will bring the creativity we so desperately need, but we have a lot to rely on them for.

[Stevo985]

The midfield have been coached to prioritise defensive capabilities over attacking intent, it so much shows with every midfield player. Scared to make a run forward, passing back, sideways when challenged. A weak Delph, Westwood. Watch how Gill plays, (Lambert has not had chance to coach him yet) gets the ball goes forward, crosses forward, diagonal balls. Its rare you see our midfield make a run straight into the box. Hutton and Sissokho also playing as forward wingers completely missing out the midfield has always baffled me, strange tactically since they are both shit crossers of the ball. Why do they not stay back and use the midfield??

I don't think they're being coached to be defensive, they are just all naturally defensive. That's the problem. We don't have (or haven't) any naturally attacking midfielders.

 

Gil (there's only one L by the way) and SInclair are, hopefully, the tonic for that. 2 naturally attacking midfielders/wingers to bridge that gap.

 

I know it's cool to pretend that Lambert is some blithering idiot that has wandered in off the street and doesn't even know the rules to football, but he hasn't bought Gil and Sinclair to coach them into being defensive midfielders. He does actually know a little bit about football and I think it's pretty obvious he's trying to add some attacking talent to that midfield.

 

Whether he can make it work tactically or not we are yet to see. but he's bought the right kind of players.

 

As for Hutton and Cissokho, we played a narrow midfield and used the fullbacks to provide the width. It's a pretty common approach in football. It didn't work particularly well for us but it's not exactly some crazy tactic he dreamt up.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Stevo985

[TRO]

.....No effective movement

[TRO]

 

The midfield have been coached to prioritise defensive capabilities over attacking intent, it so much shows with every midfield player. Scared to make a run forward, passing back, sideways when challenged. A weak Delph, Westwood. Watch how Gill plays, (Lambert has not had chance to coach him yet) gets the ball goes forward, crosses forward, diagonal balls. Its rare you see our midfield make a run straight into the box. Hutton and Sissokho also playing as forward wingers completely missing out the midfield has always baffled me, strange tactically since they are both shit crossers of the ball. Why do they not stay back and use the midfield??

I don't think they're being coached to be defensive, they are just all naturally defensive. That's the problem. We don't have (or haven't) any naturally attacking midfielders.

 

Gil (there's only one L by the way) and SInclair are, hopefully, the tonic for that. 2 naturally attacking midfielders/wingers to bridge that gap.

 

I know it's cool to pretend that Lambert is some blithering idiot that has wandered in off the street and doesn't even know the rules to football, but he hasn't bought Gil and Sinclair to coach them into being defensive midfielders. He does actually know a little bit about football and I think it's pretty obvious he's trying to add some attacking talent to that midfield.

 

Whether he can make it work tactically or not we are yet to see. but he's bought the right kind of players.

 

As for Hutton and Cissokho, we played a narrow midfield and used the fullbacks to provide the width. It's a pretty common approach in football. It didn't work particularly well for us but it's not exactly some crazy tactic he dreamt up.

 

 

Well, I don't think Harry Redknapp, Glen Hoddle or Les Ferdinand are fools either....but they ain't done QPR much good in the Prem.

 

I think sometimes a malaise sets in, despite the famous names clubs have in the coaching staff....you just have to change it.

[Uncle Albert]

Paul Lambert is our biggest midfield problem, simple lack of knowledge on how to set them up. same applies for the rest of the team

[Stevo985]

 

 

The midfield have been coached to prioritise defensive capabilities over attacking intent, it so much shows with every midfield player. Scared to make a run forward, passing back, sideways when challenged. A weak Delph, Westwood. Watch how Gill plays, (Lambert has not had chance to coach him yet) gets the ball goes forward, crosses forward, diagonal balls. Its rare you see our midfield make a run straight into the box. Hutton and Sissokho also playing as forward wingers completely missing out the midfield has always baffled me, strange tactically since they are both shit crossers of the ball. Why do they not stay back and use the midfield??

I don't think they're being coached to be defensive, they are just all naturally defensive. That's the problem. We don't have (or haven't) any naturally attacking midfielders.

 

Gil (there's only one L by the way) and SInclair are, hopefully, the tonic for that. 2 naturally attacking midfielders/wingers to bridge that gap.

 

I know it's cool to pretend that Lambert is some blithering idiot that has wandered in off the street and doesn't even know the rules to football, but he hasn't bought Gil and Sinclair to coach them into being defensive midfielders. He does actually know a little bit about football and I think it's pretty obvious he's trying to add some attacking talent to that midfield.

 

Whether he can make it work tactically or not we are yet to see. but he's bought the right kind of players.

 

As for Hutton and Cissokho, we played a narrow midfield and used the fullbacks to provide the width. It's a pretty common approach in football. It didn't work particularly well for us but it's not exactly some crazy tactic he dreamt up.

 

 

Well, I don't think Harry Redknapp, Glen Hoddle or Les Ferdinand are fools either....but they ain't done QPR much good in the Prem.

 

I think sometimes a malaise sets in, despite the famous names clubs have in the coaching staff....you just have to change it.

 

That wasn't really my point.

We do need a change.

 

My point was merely that I don't believe Lambert is coaching the midfield to be overly defensive, it's just a result of us having deep lying players in there.

Basically, the suggestion that Lambert is going to be out on the training ground coaching Gil and Sinclair to defend is a bit silly.

[dn1982]

I think the last time one of our midfielders got into the box and scored was Chelsea last season! For me Delph has all the attributes to be the one who gets into the box and helps put but for some reason he seems to stop more often than not on the edge of the box. We don't get enough runners from midfield for this reason I'd play Gil in a 3 with Delph and Sanchez and let them get used to each other.

[TRO]

 

 

 

The midfield have been coached to prioritise defensive capabilities over attacking intent, it so much shows with every midfield player. Scared to make a run forward, passing back, sideways when challenged. A weak Delph, Westwood. Watch how Gill plays, (Lambert has not had chance to coach him yet) gets the ball goes forward, crosses forward, diagonal balls. Its rare you see our midfield make a run straight into the box. Hutton and Sissokho also playing as forward wingers completely missing out the midfield has always baffled me, strange tactically since they are both shit crossers of the ball. Why do they not stay back and use the midfield??

I don't think they're being coached to be defensive, they are just all naturally defensive. That's the problem. We don't have (or haven't) any naturally attacking midfielders.

 

Gil (there's only one L by the way) and SInclair are, hopefully, the tonic for that. 2 naturally attacking midfielders/wingers to bridge that gap.

 

I know it's cool to pretend that Lambert is some blithering idiot that has wandered in off the street and doesn't even know the rules to football, but he hasn't bought Gil and Sinclair to coach them into being defensive midfielders. He does actually know a little bit about football and I think it's pretty obvious he's trying to add some attacking talent to that midfield.

 

Whether he can make it work tactically or not we are yet to see. but he's bought the right kind of players.

 

As for Hutton and Cissokho, we played a narrow midfield and used the fullbacks to provide the width. It's a pretty common approach in football. It didn't work particularly well for us but it's not exactly some crazy tactic he dreamt up.

 

 

Well, I don't think Harry Redknapp, Glen Hoddle or Les Ferdinand are fools either....but they ain't done QPR much good in the Prem.

 

I think sometimes a malaise sets in, despite the famous names clubs have in the coaching staff....you just have to change it.

 

That wasn't really my point.

We do need a change.

 

My point was merely that I don't believe Lambert is coaching the midfield to be overly defensive, it's just a result of us having deep lying players in there.

Basically, the suggestion that Lambert is going to be out on the training ground coaching Gil and Sinclair to defend is a bit silly.

 

 

I too do not believe he is doing that ....so I agree

when you get situations like this managers don't set out with all their experience to do anything wrong....Billy McNeill, Graham Turner,Jo Venglos, Alex Mcleish, David Oleary Even Graham Taylor MK2

 

.....but what they don't do is get it right....and some on here need to accept that.

 

This Manager is not getting it right for whatever reason.....and further more it does not look like he ever will.