Things You Don't "Get"

[HanoiVillan]

On 27/10/2021 at 09:52, sidcow said:

Why do illegal immigrants risk their lives to cross the Channel and get to the UK. 

They've reached the security of The West and safety.  Why risk death to make it here? Is it literally our Welfare State or are there deeper reasons?

On this I wrote:

On 27/10/2021 at 12:57, HanoiVillan said:

. . .those who are taking that risk are largely those who have a clear and specific reason for doing so. Language and family connections are the key ones, language above all as English is by far the most widely spoken second language in the world. 

There is also, in my experience of teaching English to French muslims of north African ancestry, an understandable perception among this group that the UK is more tolerant to muslims than mainland Europe, especially France, and it may well be that is somewhat of a motivating factor for some as well. 

A little bit of anecdata:

One thing that is not mentioned by these migrants is welfare, as @Davkaus pointed out at the time. This is not because we are not particularly generous - though we aren't - but because most people from other parts of the world have no idea about the UK's welfare state, any more than British people know about France's or Germany's or Turkey's or Iraq's.

[sidcow]

7 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

On this I wrote:

A little bit of anecdata:

One thing that is not mentioned by these migrants is welfare, as @Davkaus pointed out at the time. This is not because we are not particularly generous - though we aren't - but because most people from other parts of the world have no idea about the UK's welfare state, any more than British people know about France's or Germany's or Turkey's or Iraq's.

Yeah a lot of it does appear to be language, English is the global language. 

I still can't square jumping into a dinghy in Freezing cold weather to reach a distant shore rather than learn a language but there you go. 

If they think we will treat them better than France they ought to tune into more speeches of Priti Patel!

Edited November 24, 2021 by sidcow

[HanoiVillan]

17 minutes ago, sidcow said:

If they think we will treat them better than France they ought to tune into more speeches of Priti Patel!

I think there's more than one type of tolerance at play here, in that you're right that Patel is just the latest in a long line of Home Secretaries to compete to make life as difficult as possible for people who haven't yet been granted asylum, but there's a second, societal level of tolerance where I think the UK - or at least its big cities - genuinely does do better than most or all of continental Europe.

[sidcow]

4 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I think there's more than one type of tolerance at play here, in that you're right that Patel is just the latest in a long line of Home Secretaries to compete to make life as difficult as possible for people who haven't yet been granted asylum, but there's a second, societal level of tolerance where I think the UK - or at least its big cities - genuinely does do better than most or all of continental Europe.

It's funny, we're often painted as a highly bigoted society here, and without question a lot of that is about, but some places in Europe that on the face of it you would consider to be much "nicer" welcoming people have a far more aggressive stance to outsiders. 

I mean the French can be as surely as hell with other Western Europeans so I can well imagine the reaction that migrants would get there. 

[HanoiVillan]

41 minutes ago, sidcow said:

It's funny, we're often painted as a highly bigoted society here, and without question a lot of that is about, but some places in Europe that on the face of it you would consider to be much "nicer" welcoming people have a far more aggressive stance to outsiders. 

I mean the French can be as surely as hell with other Western Europeans so I can well imagine the reaction that migrants would get there. 

Yes, agreed, and while the comparative generosity of different European welfare states is not something people from other parts of the world would be expected to know, by contrast France's ban on headscarves is pretty well-known across the Muslim world IME.

However, it's still worth pointing out that France accepts many more refugees than we do (somewhere between 2x and 3x as many IIRC).

[Chindie]

9 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Yes, agreed, and while the comparative generosity of different European welfare states is not something people from other parts of the world would be expected to know, by contrast France's ban on headscarves is pretty well-known across the Muslim world IME.

However, it's still worth pointing out that France accepts many more refugees than we do (somewhere between 2x and 3x as many IIRC).

So what you're saying is we need to install a law that states everyone must eat 3 rashers if bacon a day on pain of death?

[bickster]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

I mean the French can be as surely as hell with other Western Europeans so I can well imagine the reaction that migrants would get there. 

Ah good old British stereotyping.

I've only ever experienced this surliness in Parisians, everywhere else the French are pretty welcoming in my experience

Parisians are even surly with other Parisians. It's just the way they are

It's no difference to the arrogance we feel native Londoners exhibit.

[sidcow]

13 minutes ago, bickster said:

Ah good old British stereotyping.

I've only ever experienced this surliness in Parisians, everywhere else the French are pretty welcoming in my experience

Parisians are even surly with other Parisians. It's just the way they are

It's no difference to the arrogance we feel native Londoners exhibit.

Nah, I'm not having that.

I went on a French camping holiday years ago.  The showers were absolutely crap.

1) I asked the holiday rep if she would have a word with the owner.  She said she would dig out her phrase book.....great, your a holiday rep in France and can't even speak French?  Saw her a couple of days later and asked if she had had a word and she said no.  She said if she complained he would likely just close the shower block down instead.

2) Went to the bar at the campsite and met said owner.  I was trying to order "Brown Beer" which was the closest thing to Bitter they have in France.  I was asking for "Bier Brun" and he just kept looking at me with a blank face, shrugging his shoulders muttering.   So I pointed at the bottle on the shelf, he said "Ahhh, Biere DU Brun" (or something similar).  I thought, yeah like you didn't know what I was trying to ask for, really?

 

As @HanoiVillan has already mentioned the Burkha ban.  I am pretty sure there are bigger problems there than here.

Edited November 24, 2021 by sidcow

[bickster]

7 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Nah, I'm not having that.

I went on a French camping holiday years ago.  The showers were absolutely crap.

1) I asked the holiday rep if she would have a word with the owner.  She said she would dig out her phrase book.....great, your a holiday rep in France and can't even speak French?  Saw her a couple of days later and asked if she had had a word and she said no.  She said if she complained he would likely just close the shower block down instead.

2) Went to the bar at the campsite and met said owner.  I was trying to order "Brown Beer" which was the closest thing to Bitter they have in France.  I was asking for "Bier Brun" and he just kept looking at me with a blank face, shrugging his shoulders muttering.   So I pointed at the bottle on the shelf, he said "Ahhh, Biere DU Brun" (or something similar).  I thought, yeah like you didn't know what I was trying to ask for, really?

 

As @HanoiVillan has already mentioned the Burkha ban.  I am pretty sure there are bigger problems there than here.

Re 1) You had a shit non-French holiday rep. I don't see how this relates to the French at all

Re 2) You expect them to understand someone with a Midlands accent mispronouncing something in their language. Reverse the roles, you wouldn't understand either.

I also don't see what the French's Burkha ban has to do with their treatment of other Westerners

[mjmooney]

I'm with @bickster on this one. Sure, there are plenty of dickheads in France. But no more than there are in Britain. Or anywhere else, for that matter. I'm nowhere near as widely travelled as (say) @tonyh29, but in my experience, people are mostly OK everywhere. 

[sidcow]

31 minutes ago, bickster said:

Re 1) You had a shit non-French holiday rep. I don't see how this relates to the French at all

Re 2) You expect them to understand someone with a Midlands accent mispronouncing something in their language. Reverse the roles, you wouldn't understand either.

I also don't see what the French's Burkha ban has to do with their treatment of other Westerners

The rep was just a by the way story. 

Are you French? You're coming across like you are. 

[bickster]

8 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Are you French? You're coming across like you are. 

Really? That's your take from this?

[lapal_fan]

10 minutes ago, sidcow said:

The rep was just a by the way story. 

Are you French? You're coming across like you are. 

Shut up Damocles 

[villa4europe]

45 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I'm with @bickster on this one. Sure, there are plenty of dickheads in France. But no more than there are in Britain. Or anywhere else, for that matter. I'm nowhere near as widely travelled as (say) @tonyh29, but in my experience, people are mostly OK everywhere. 

The main question is why did all those French dickheads become policemen? 

And you're right, from my travels people are generally OK everywhere but would add that from my experience British people tend to be more engaging with complete strangers

 

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

I'm with @bickster on this one. Sure, there are plenty of dickheads in France. But no more than there are in Britain. Or anywhere else, for that matter. I'm nowhere near as widely travelled as (say) @tonyh29, but in my experience, people are mostly OK everywhere. 

yeah I'd 100% echo that sentiment  ...Thankfully on my travels I've been lucky and not met too many dickheads 

When i lived in Budapest some American tourist wrote to the English paper and said he got ripped off by someone in the street ( the scam where a stunning woman approaches you asking for the time or a light  , expresses surprise at you being English /American , flatters you a bit and then suggests you go for a drink that ends up costing you £500 )

so he went to the hotel , packed his backs and left Hungary and went to Vienna who he insisted were going to benefit from all the money he would have spent in Hungary  , he will never come back to Hungary and how the Hungarians should be ashamed of themselves 

 I just thought imagine holding every Hungarian responsible for  your stupidity and the actions of  one person 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by tonyh29

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

It's no difference to the arrogance we feel native Londoners exhibit.

hey , what do you expect when  you illegally cross the rich /poor divide and head south 

 

funnily enough though , I've been to London about a dozen times in the past month and commented to Mrs h that it has suddenly become friendly , I've even had conversations with strangers in London , something previously unheard of pre-covid  .. 

[chrisp65]

We went to a little restaurant in Paris.

With dodgy French skills, we ordered some food and a half bottle of wine. We then decided the place was great and the meal was great. We went crazy, using our best Francais we asked for ‘the other half of this bottle’. The waiter and the owner adopted us, we hat a great pidgin french pidgin english chat.

Another couple arrived, stood in the doorway, and announced ‘DO. YOU. SPEEEK. INGLISH?’

Owner and waiter, just stood there, looking absolutely baffled and then gave them a machine gun torrent of French.

 

[lapal_fan]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

We went to a little restaurant in Paris.

With dodgy French skills, we ordered some food and a half bottle of wine. We then decided the place was great and the meal was great. We went crazy, using our best Francais we asked for ‘the other half of this bottle’. The waiter and the owner adopted us, we hat a great pidgin french pidgin english chat.

Another couple arrived, stood in the doorway, and announced ‘DO. YOU. SPEEEK. INGLISH?’

Owner and waiter, just stood there, looking absolutely baffled and then gave them a machine gun torrent of French.

 

Woah woah woah.. PIDGIN?!

PIDGIN!!??

I always thought it was Pidgeon.. 

Pidgeon English.. like.. I dunno why, but what the holy **** is a PIDGIN?! 

 

Ah shit man.. 

 

[mjmooney]

32 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

The main question is why did all those French dickheads become policemen? 

Same reason the British (or any other nationality) dickheads became policemen. 

[bickster]

5 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

We went to a little restaurant in Paris.

With dodgy French skills, we ordered some food and a half bottle of wine. We then decided the place was great and the meal was great. We went crazy, using our best Francais we asked for ‘the other half of this bottle’. The waiter and the owner adopted us, we hat a great pidgin french pidgin english chat.

Another couple arrived, stood in the doorway, and announced ‘DO. YOU. SPEEEK. INGLISH?’

Owner and waiter, just stood there, looking absolutely baffled and then gave them a machine gun torrent of French.

 

Yep, seen it happen many times in many places. Once especially in Austria from a bloke that owned a bowling alley called Richard. Unruly Brits being arseholes, didn't understand English, after hours when they'd gone. Hi Chaps, what can I get you. He'd worked on a P&O Liner for ten years, his English was better than ours