dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Wow. Guilt over apartheid is something I have never nor should ever feel. The colour of my skin is irrelevant to the person I am and I've never knowingly oppressed or conquered anyone. Mental. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momo Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 momo I think you need a history lesson to think it has only been Europeans who have ever conquered. Wow. Guilt over apartheid is something I have never nor should ever feel. The colour of my skin is irrelevant to the person I am and I've never knowingly oppressed or conquered anyone. Mental. I agree that it is a stupid discussion, but please don't read just the extracts. I am not offending anybody. I just have a problem with people who call Mandela a terrorist. He was a freedom fighter, and a great man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 It's not a case of feeling guilt, it's a case of understanding and appreciating the privileges you (white european male) have over a great deal of the world's population - privileges gained not through peaceful, 'democratic' means, but hundreds if not thousands of years of oppression and slaughter. However, this is not the right thread for that kind of debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 It's not a case of feeling guilt, it's a case of understanding and appreciating the privileges you (white european male) have over a great deal of the world's population - privileges gained not through peaceful, 'democratic' means, but hundreds if not thousands of years of oppression and slaughter. However, this is not the right thread for that kind of debate.I don't see why it isn't the right thread for that kind of debate because I'd have thought that it was honouring Mandela to have that kind of debate - as long as it actually is that.So, going back to your first para, it seems like an egregiously unjust simplification of oppression to talk about it just in terms of skin colour or colonialism (all of which is what is implied by (some of) a previous poster's comments). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 It's not a case of feeling guilt, it's a case of understanding and appreciating the privileges you (white european male) have over a great deal of the world's population - privileges gained not through peaceful, 'democratic' means, but hundreds if not thousands of years of oppression and slaughter. However, this is not the right thread for that kind of debate. Oh I do. I'm just not sure what being white has to do with it. I'm a human, that's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 momo I think you need a history lesson to think it has only been Europeans who have ever conquered. Wow. Guilt over apartheid is something I have never nor should ever feel. The colour of my skin is irrelevant to the person I am and I've never knowingly oppressed or conquered anyone. Mental. I agree that it is a stupid discussion, but please don't read just the extracts. I am not offending anybody. I just have a problem with people who call Mandela a terrorist. He was a freedom fighter, and a great man. I read everything. I take umbrage with the "extracts". I have no doubt he was a great man and despite being somebody rarely awed by anyone I find him an inspiration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 It's not a case of feeling guilt, it's a case of understanding and appreciating the privileges you (white european male) have over a great deal of the world's population - privileges gained not through peaceful, 'democratic' means, but hundreds if not thousands of years of oppression and slaughter. However, this is not the right thread for that kind of debate. Oh I do. I'm just not sure what being white has to do with it. I'm a human, that's that. Didn't you know that your skin pigmentation based on the climate your ancestors lived in totally defines your character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 7, 2013 Moderator Share Posted December 7, 2013 I don't know why people get hung up about the terrorist word. It is hard to describe him as anything elseThing is where does it say that being a terrorist is a bad thing in every instance. Your hang ups are about the connotations of the word not the deeds.The words terrorist and freedom fighter are very often interchangeable. Sure there are some freedom fighters that aren't terrorists, there are some terrorists that aren't freedom fighters but very often freedom fighters are terrorists, Nelson Mandela was one of these. He was fighting for a just cause imo, he was also using the tactics of the terrorist.The rest of that discussion is spin 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Oh come on, terrorist has negative connotations. Just because technically he may have been involved in terror doesn't mean he should be described as one when there are better alternatives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Oh I do. I'm just not sure what being white has to do with it. I'm a human, that's that. I'm not well read enough on the subject to give an adequate response to this, so I suggest reading this and going on from there if you're interested. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 It's not a case of feeling guilt, it's a case of understanding and appreciating the privileges you (white european male) have over a great deal of the world's population - privileges gained not through peaceful, 'democratic' means, but hundreds if not thousands of years of oppression and slaughter. However, this is not the right thread for that kind of debate. I don't see why it isn't the right thread for that kind of debate because I'd have thought that it was honouring Mandela to have that kind of debate - as long as it actually is that. So, going back to your first para, it seems like an egregiously unjust simplification of oppression to talk about it just in terms of skin colour or colonialism (all of which is what is implied by (some of) a previous poster's comments). Indeed it is an over-simplification based upon skin colour. The original occupants of the Cape when the Europeans arrived were the khoikhoi (referred to as Hottentots by the Europeans). Most of the modern black population in modern SA are economic migrants from other areas of Africa. So in a real sense, the original population of SA was displaced by both white Europeans and other Africans. When people claim rights for black people on the basis of them being indigenous their claims are based entirely upon skin colour not ethnicity, language or culture. It really is far more complicated than we are generally led to believe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Oh I do. I'm just not sure what being white has to do with it. I'm a human, that's that. I'm not well read enough on the subject to give an adequate response to this, so I suggest reading this and going on from there if you're interested. tl;dr Isn't this exactly the kind of attitude we're trying to rid ourselves of, that one particular skin shade holds privilege over another? By rejecting the concept are we not making progress towards equality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Oh I do. I'm just not sure what being white has to do with it. I'm a human, that's that. I'm not well read enough on the subject to give an adequate response to this, so I suggest reading this and going on from there if you're interested. well, I just read that paper, and perhaps as a white male I'm not best placed to offer a crit on it but it's flawed and my kneejerk reaction to the flaw is that it was written with the best of intentions by somebody looking to adopt an arguement or stance they haven't yet fully developed (which is stated in the text to be fair) and also, it's written by a white american feminist in the 1980's. I think she's using the word 'white' where she means 'affluent white american from around here'. item 2: I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust.... that proves white priviledge? You can't tell me that poor white trash from Texas get to choose the colour of all their neighbours any more than whities in the east end of London can chose to spend time in nice trustworthy affluent white only ghettos. Nice idea, doesn't stand up to simple scrutiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) http://dailycurrant.com/2013/12/06/kanye-west-i-am-the-next-nelson-mandela/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=kanye-west-i-am-the-next-nelson-mandela] Kanye West: ‘I Am The Next Nelson Mandela’ Dec 06, 2013 Kanye West is under fire today for claiming that he will soon be a bigger cultural and civil rights icon than Nelson Mandela. In an interview with WGCI radio in Chicago, the notoriously self-promoting rapper said that yesterday's death of the 95-year-old SouthAfrican leader will finally allow people to focus more of their attention on West's own accomplishments. In the studio to promote his new music video Bound 2, the conversation soon turned to the day's biggest news out of South Africa. West was asked who he thought on the world stage today could possibly replace Nelson Mandela in terms of leadership, and his unconventional answer left heads spinning. "I am the next Nelson Mandela," West responded. "I'm only 36 years old, and when I look at everything I've accomplished, it's the only comparison that makes any sense. By the time I'm 95, I'm going to be a bigger hero than he ever was. "Nelson Mandela did a lot of good work, don't get me wrong. But I think I'm on track to do something even bigger. I liberate minds with my music. That's more important than liberating a few people from apartheid or whatever. "Not to say Mandela wasn't for real. I have mad respect. I just think we need to keep things in perspective here. Anyone can be replaced. And I think I'm well on my way towards being the next great black leader. I'm already worshiped around the world. And there's more to come." Watch the Throne Former South African president and anti-apartheid leader Nelson Mandela died yesterday after years of declining health. His legacy of peaceful reconciliation has been universally praised by political leaders, the media and ordinary citizens around the world. Kanye West, for his part, is known for going to extraordinary lengths to focus attention on himself. His reaction today was so unusual, however, that host Adrian Cronauer decided to challenge his assertions. "What have you actually done for civil rights?" he asked. "Have you been involved in any campaigns? Any political activities? It seems to me comparing yourself to Mandela is a bit of a stretch." "I've blazed a trail with my career," West responded. "I faced mad racism when I entered this profession. I mean how many black rappers can you name that came before me? I was a pioneer. And now I'm doing the same thing in the fashion world. "Not to mention I have a bigger market than he ever did. Mandela was working in South Africa, which has, like what, six people? I started my magic here in the USA and then I took my business global. Worldwide baby. "I just want everyone out there to know. I see y'all crying on the TV. Being all sad. Just know that Kanye's gonna carry on Mandela's legacy. There's nothing to worry about. I got this." words cannot describe how much i dislike this clown. his comments are complete comedy. does he really believe this garbage? Edited December 7, 2013 by Demitri_C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Well yes, it is very much of its time/place. I posted it because it was the text that introduced 'white privilege'. Simply put, as a white bloke from a reasonable background, I can't say much about it, because I have never experienced the other side of the coin. I can say though that rejecting the concept is not the way forward: it does exist, and one must acknowledge it, educate yourself in it and make changes to the system to get rid of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) Indeed it is an over-simplification based upon skin colour. The original occupants of the Cape when the Europeans arrived were the khoikhoi (referred to as Hottentots by the Europeans). Most of the modern black population in modern SA are economic migrants from other areas of Africa. So in a real sense, the original population of SA was displaced by both white Europeans and other Africans. When people claim rights for black people on the basis of them being indigenous their claims are based entirely upon skin colour not ethnicity, language or culture. It really is far more complicated than we are generally led to believe. Yup, but don't we all just love an oversimplification based on skin colour! I don't know that the majority of blacks in SA are migrants from elsewhere, but it is a big proportion, and it is definitely a majority in the Western Cape. I think that's one reason why race relations are generally better in the WC (more Anglo-colonials and Afrikaners who aren't inbred is another) - the black Africans (perhaps subconsciously) tend to take the place as they've found it, rather than view it as their land being occupied by invaders. The other thing is that the Khoikhoi and related tribes such as the Bushmen are the indigenous people of pretty much the whole of SA. The classic darker-skinned black Africans have moved south into SA over the last maybe 1,000 years, not more. This means that, apart from the Khoikhoi and the Bushmen, we're all ultimately immigrants to the place, which makes a nonsense of the notion of the white man having taken over the black man's country, but there it is again - we all love an oversimplification based on skin colour. A wise man once pointed out an interesting social phenomenon to me: When you have waves of immigrants arriving in a country, the latest wave of immigrants is always the most grumbled-about. There are many, many examples: Italian immigrants to Australia, followed by Lebanese; Polish immigrants to the UK; Zimbabwean and Somali immigrants to South Africa. Edited December 7, 2013 by CrackpotForeigner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MessiWillSignForVilla Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 http://dailycurrant.com/2013/12/06/kanye-west-i-am-the-next-nelson-mandela/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=kanye-west-i-am-the-next-nelson-mandela] Kanye West: ‘I Am The Next Nelson Mandela’ Dec 06, 2013 Kanye West is under fire today for claiming that he will soon be a bigger cultural and civil rights icon than Nelson Mandela. In an interview with WGCI radio in Chicago, the notoriously self-promoting rapper said that yesterday's death of the 95-year-old SouthAfrican leader will finally allow people to focus more of their attention on West's own accomplishments. In the studio to promote his new music video Bound 2, the conversation soon turned to the day's biggest news out of South Africa. West was asked who he thought on the world stage today could possibly replace Nelson Mandela in terms of leadership, and his unconventional answer left heads spinning. "I am the next Nelson Mandela," West responded. "I'm only 36 years old, and when I look at everything I've accomplished, it's the only comparison that makes any sense. By the time I'm 95, I'm going to be a bigger hero than he ever was. "Nelson Mandela did a lot of good work, don't get me wrong. But I think I'm on track to do something even bigger. I liberate minds with my music. That's more important than liberating a few people from apartheid or whatever. "Not to say Mandela wasn't for real. I have mad respect. I just think we need to keep things in perspective here. Anyone can be replaced. And I think I'm well on my way towards being the next great black leader. I'm already worshiped around the world. And there's more to come." Watch the Throne Former South African president and anti-apartheid leader Nelson Mandela died yesterday after years of declining health. His legacy of peaceful reconciliation has been universally praised by political leaders, the media and ordinary citizens around the world. Kanye West, for his part, is known for going to extraordinary lengths to focus attention on himself. His reaction today was so unusual, however, that host Adrian Cronauer decided to challenge his assertions. "What have you actually done for civil rights?" he asked. "Have you been involved in any campaigns? Any political activities? It seems to me comparing yourself to Mandela is a bit of a stretch." "I've blazed a trail with my career," West responded. "I faced mad racism when I entered this profession. I mean how many black rappers can you name that came before me? I was a pioneer. And now I'm doing the same thing in the fashion world. "Not to mention I have a bigger market than he ever did. Mandela was working in South Africa, which has, like what, six people? I started my magic here in the USA and then I took my business global. Worldwide baby. "I just want everyone out there to know. I see y'all crying on the TV. Being all sad. Just know that Kanye's gonna carry on Mandela's legacy. There's nothing to worry about. I got this." words cannot describe how much i dislike this clown. his comments are complete comedy. does he really believe this garbage? Might want to read up about the source first 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Haha, the thing about that Kanye West spoof is that it's entirely believable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Oh dear Demitri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted December 8, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted December 8, 2013 He was a terrorist - he used that methodology in an effort to bring about his (just) aims, it's something you can accurately say he was. He subsequently achieved astounding things and will be remembered for them down the ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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