bickster Posted December 9, 2013 Moderator Share Posted December 9, 2013 Well were the IRA freedom fighters?Quite clearly yes. It matters not whether you agree with their cause, if you were looking at it in an unbiased manner yes they were. But so were the SDLP, both wanted a united Ireland. Only the IRA were terrorists though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 So Malcolm Rifkind (Con) says in the Mandella tributes in parliament that it was "in some ways it was more difficult for de Klerk than Mandela" Now history has shown that the Tory party was a great supporter of the former regime(s) and there is lots of evidence of calls for mandella to be hanged etc from the Young Tory party at that time, we know Cameron was part of that party but surely Rifkind cannot seriously believe that it was more difficult for de Klerk? -------- Also spoke to colleagues in SA today and apparently the weekend was amazing, lots of celebration of his life parties etc. All colours, religions, tribes etc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Designer1 Posted December 9, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted December 9, 2013 So Malcolm Rifkind (Con) says in the Mandella tributes in parliament that it was "in some ways it was more difficult for de Klerk than Mandela" Did he mention his love for Barry Bannan too? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 PLO - terrorists or freedom fighters?The answer is obviously both Not so obvious really. People who hijack planes, with innocents on board, are not freedom fighters. The PLO were fighting for what they believed to be the freedom of an oppressed people ergo they were freedom fighters. They employed terrorist tactics ergo they were also terrorists. There is no thin grey line, it is not an either / or situation. It's a Venn diagram with a large proportion in group A and B. the two terms mean different things. Freedom fighter refers to the cause, terrorist refers to the tactic employed So, as the state of Israel are often accused of being 'terrorists', are all Israelis 'freedom fighters'? Not my opinion, I am just asking the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 9, 2013 Moderator Share Posted December 9, 2013 PLO - terrorists or freedom fighters?The answer is obviously bothNot so obvious really.People who hijack planes, with innocents on board, are not freedom fighters.The PLO were fighting for what they believed to be the freedom of an oppressed people ergo they were freedom fighters. They employed terrorist tactics ergo they were also terrorists.There is no thin grey line, it is not an either / or situation. It's a Venn diagram with a large proportion in group A and B. the two terms mean different things. Freedom fighter refers to the cause, terrorist refers to the tactic employedSo, as the state of Israel are often accused of being 'terrorists', are all Israelis 'freedom fighters'?Not my opinion, I am just asking the question.Its a particularly daft question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 PLO - terrorists or freedom fighters?The answer is obviously bothNot so obvious really.People who hijack planes, with innocents on board, are not freedom fighters.The PLO were fighting for what they believed to be the freedom of an oppressed people ergo they were freedom fighters. They employed terrorist tactics ergo they were also terrorists.There is no thin grey line, it is not an either / or situation. It's a Venn diagram with a large proportion in group A and B. the two terms mean different things. Freedom fighter refers to the cause, terrorist refers to the tactic employedSo, as the state of Israel are often accused of being 'terrorists', are all Israelis 'freedom fighters'?Not my opinion, I am just asking the question.Its a particularly daft question Daft, or just something that cannot be answered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 10, 2013 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2013 Daft. No matter what you think of the situation there Israel is a state with a democratically elected government. It's people are free. It's oppressing the people of Palestine but that's a different matte all together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) PLO - terrorists or freedom fighters?The answer is obviously both Not so obvious really.People who hijack planes, with innocents on board, are not freedom fighters. The PLO were fighting for what they believed to be the freedom of an oppressed people ergo they were freedom fighters. They employed terrorist tactics ergo they were also terrorists.There is no thin grey line, it is not an either / or situation. It's a Venn diagram with a large proportion in group A and B. the two terms mean different things. Freedom fighter refers to the cause, terrorist refers to the tactic employed So, as the state of Israel are often accused of being 'terrorists', are all Israelis 'freedom fighters'?Not my opinion, I am just asking the question. Its a particularly daft question Daft, or just something that cannot be answered? It is one of those questions which reveal how much our opinions are formed by the orthodoxy in the media and how we, despite our forlorn hopes otherwise, identify with the establishment and react quite differently when we ourselves are the target, rather than some white South Africans we have been told are worthy of our indifference. Such questions threaten to topple our teetering certainties. Edited December 10, 2013 by MakemineVanilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 To Kingfisher... You seem rather angry? I don't think I've said much about my views on Mandela, I'm merely defending the right of others to express their opinion. Forcing your opinion on others is rather fascist do you not think? Question at the end was not rhetorical. I'm still interested in your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Daft. No matter what you think of the situation there Israel is a state with a democratically elected government. It's people are free. It's oppressing the people of Palestine but that's a different matte all together So when Israel are accused of state terrorism, their accusers are wrong, as presumably it is just a democratically elected government acting in the interests of their people. I guess that it also can be assumed that 'freedom fighters' can fight to preserve freedom, as well as gain freedom. I am no supporter of either the PLO or Israel, but the whole theme of this thread gives the appearance that all sides of all disputes in our world are in the right, it is only the perspective of the individual commentator at any given time that makes them wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I guess that it also can be assumed that 'freedom fighters' can fight to preserve freedom, as well as gain freedom.I think this is where this thread properly gets in to a struggle over semantics:Fighting to 'preserve freedom' (freedom as defined by the authority on behalf of which one chooses to fight) does not a 'freedom fighter' make (implicit being : herein lies an authority actually denying freedom). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 11, 2013 Moderator Share Posted December 11, 2013 So when Israel are accused of state terrorism, their accusers are wrong, as presumably it is just a democratically elected government acting in the interests of their people.State Terrorism isn't really the same thing as terrorism though and the term is usually state sponsored terrorismI guess that it also can be assumed that 'freedom fighters' can fight to preserve freedom, as well as gain freedom.I'd say that assumption was incorrectI am no supporter of either the PLO or Israel, but the whole theme of this thread gives the appearance that all sides of all disputes in our world are in the right, it is only the perspective of the individual commentator at any given time that makes them wrong.I suppose that is true to a large degree, only the oppressed can define their own oppression Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 (edited) To Kingfisher... You seem rather angry? I don't think I've said much about my views on Mandela, I'm merely defending the right of others to express their opinion. Forcing your opinion on others is rather fascist do you not think?Question at the end was not rhetorical. I'm still interested in your answer.I'm not forcing a view on anybody, I passionately stated my view about what I think constitutes a terrorist and what I think doesn't. I don't think the answer is always as clear cut as some posters have stated in this thread. If we start looking up dictionary definitions and saying, 'there you go, that's what he is, it's there in the dictionary' are we fully appreciating the complexity of language? I merely facilitated a debate on the subject, which hopefully made some people think a little more than they might have about it. I have. If I changed a few minds re-Mandela being (IMO) wrongly described as a terrorist, great. My views are certainly now more understanding of the opposite argument(s) put forward. But of course people can think what they like, whether we agree or not. I didn't answer you originally, I didn't think the accusation worthy of a response. But there you go, as you asked nicely, twice. Edited December 11, 2013 by Kingfisher 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Also spoke to colleagues in SA today and apparently the weekend was amazing, lots of celebration of his life parties etc. All colours, religions, tribes etc Flying there tonight! A bit late, but it's been in the planning for a while. Can't wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Also spoke to colleagues in SA today and apparently the weekend was amazing, lots of celebration of his life parties etc. All colours, religions, tribes etc Flying there tonight! A bit late, but it's been in the planning for a while. Can't wait. when you get off the plane, burst into the airport and shout 'I'm Ian Duncan Smith! Did I miss it? It was somebody else's fault!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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