RIP Nelson Mandela Dies 1918- 2013

[Voinjama]

Some of the comments in this thread are of bad taste, but I expect it to be honest.

[AshVilla]

RIP

 

[chrisp65]

RIP

 

How many films was he the 'go to' guy to play a quirky black God?

[momo]

Some of the comments in this thread are of bad taste, but I expect it to be honest.

True.

[momo]

Calling him a terrorist is ignorant. It is the usual suspects doing it, probably out of fear of bursting their own racist bubble. You should all read his speech at the trial when he was convicted. Educate yourself.

 

Excerpt

The only cure is to alter the conditions under which Africans are forced to live and to meet their legitimate grievances. Africans want to be paid a living wage. Africans want to perform work which they are capable of doing, and not work which the Government declares them to be capable of. We want to be allowed to live where we obtain work, and not be endorsed out of an area because we were not born there. We want to be allowed and not to be obliged to live in rented houses which we can never call our own. We want to be part of the general population, and not confined to living in our ghettoes. African men want to have their wives and children to live with them where they work, and not to be forced into an unnatural existence in men's hostels. Our women want to be with their men folk and not to be left permanently widowed in the reserves. We want to be allowed out after eleven o'clock at night and not to be confined to our rooms like little children. We want to be allowed to travel in our own country and to seek work where we want to, where we want to and not where the Labour Bureau tells us to. We want a just share in the whole of South Africa; we want security and a stake in society.

 

Above all, My Lord, we want equal political rights, because without them our disabilities will be permanent. I know this sounds revolutionary to the whites in this country, because the majority of voters will be Africans. This makes the white man fear democracy.

 

But this fear cannot be allowed to stand in the way of the only solution which will guarantee racial harmony and freedom for all. It is not true that the enfranchisement of all will result in racial domination. Political division, based on colour, is entirely artificial and, when it disappears, so will the domination of one colour group by another. The ANC has spent half a century fighting against racialism. When it triumphs as it certainly must, it will not change that policy.

 

During my lifetime I have dedicated my life to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons will live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal for which I hope to live for and to see realised. But, My Lord, if it needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.

Edited December 6, 2013 by momo

[Pelle]

R.I.P., Nelson Mandela, one of the worlds most important leaders in modern history.

[Awol]

 

Calling him a terrorist is ignorant. It is the usual suspects doing it, probably out of fear of bursting their own racist bubble.

Lol, that old chestnut getting rolled out for daring to disagree.  It's an old, sad and worn out line of personal attack, Momo. Give it up.

 

Mandela was without question the dictionary definition of a terrorist during his early career with the ANC.

 

Upon release from prison and election to the Presidency he became and behaved like a statesman of titanic proportions, for which he fully deserves the praise and kudos he has received.

 

It is entirely possible to accept those two seperate statements without suffering from cognitive dissonance or simply being a nasty waycist.

[Nigel]

Looks like a black armband day at Anfield!

 

RIP Mr Mandella.

[Nigel]

Even if he had been a terrorist in his younger days, surely his work has more than made up for it since.

[CrackpotForeigner]

 

 

Calling him a terrorist is ignorant. It is the usual suspects doing it, probably out of fear of bursting their own racist bubble.

Lol, that old chestnut getting rolled out for daring to disagree.  It's an old, sad and worn out line of personal attack, Momo. Give it up.

 

Mandela was without question the dictionary definition of a terrorist during his early career with the ANC.

 

Upon release from prison and election to the Presidency he became and behaved like a statesman of titanic proportions, for which he fully deserves the praise and kudos he has received.

 

It is entirely possible to accept those two seperate statements without suffering from cognitive dissonance or simply being a nasty waycist.

 

 

Agree with all except the bolded bit. In fact you seem as keen to roll out the tewwowist word as a lot of people are to roll out the waycist word. Considering what he was up against, I don't know what you suggest he might have done if he was serious about changing things. I don't know what dictionary you're using, and I don't think that's the point, the word terrorist to most people implies indiscriminate killing of civilians in order to draw attention to your cause. That is nothing like what Mandela was about at any stage.

[thetrees]

 

I know there is an obscure cup game in North Wales tomorrow where they've already agreed a minute's silence will be observed. It feels a little irrelevant to the game at hand, but equally, I'll happily respect it.

I pity the poor, worried sheep, given the obscure observation that Welshmen are known to go very quiet before sex

[thetrees]

Even if he had been a terrorist in his younger days, surely his work has more than made up for it since.

I guess that if one man's terrorist can be another man's freedom fighter, then it is only fair that the reverse can apply.

[Awol]

 

 

 

Calling him a terrorist is ignorant. It is the usual suspects doing it, probably out of fear of bursting their own racist bubble.

Lol, that old chestnut getting rolled out for daring to disagree.  It's an old, sad and worn out line of personal attack, Momo. Give it up.

 

Mandela was without question the dictionary definition of a terrorist during his early career with the ANC.

 

Upon release from prison and election to the Presidency he became and behaved like a statesman of titanic proportions, for which he fully deserves the praise and kudos he has received.

 

It is entirely possible to accept those two seperate statements without suffering from cognitive dissonance or simply being a nasty waycist.

 

 

Agree with all except the bolded bit. In fact you seem as keen to roll out the tewwowist word as a lot of people are to roll out the waycist word. Considering what he was up against, I don't know what you suggest he might have done if he was serious about changing things. I don't know what dictionary you're using, and I don't think that's the point, the word terrorist to most people implies indiscriminate killing of civilians in order to draw attention to your cause. That is nothing like what Mandela was about at any stage.

 

He refused to renounce the use of violence (or armed struggle if you prefer) when he was in jail.  How can you then say he was always opposed to the indiscriminate killing of civilians when he wouldn't condemn those very acts?

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing in his shoes, but that would have also made me a terrorist.

 

Definition

 

Systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective.

[Kingfisher]

He wouldn't denounce the use of violence from his prison cell, where he was treated abominably by an evil regime for nothing more than standing up to it. Considering he wasn't allowed to say much at all from his 8ft cell, anybody who even brings it up is, well, I don't know, it's doing him a great disservice, considering the overwhelming good he achieved.

[CrackpotForeigner]

He refused to renounce the use of violence (or armed struggle if you prefer) when he was in jail.  How can you then say he was always opposed to the indiscriminate killing of civilians when he wouldn't condemn those very acts?

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing in his shoes, but that would have also made me a terrorist.

 

Definition

 

 

 

Systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective.

 

 

He was very wise to refuse to renounce violence imo. He had the moral high ground and no reason to "promise to be good" if they let him out. As a 15yo kid growing up there at the time I also wondered why he refused, but with hindsight it was a typically shrewd decision.

 

I'd say that the use of that definition of terrorism fails in his case because the violence was used to create fear in the Afrikaner Nationalist government, rather than in the white population as a whole. I certainly never felt particular fear of terrorism, I was far more afraid of mass righteous anger by large mobs of wronged black folk.

[Awol]

 

He refused to renounce the use of violence (or armed struggle if you prefer) when he was in jail.  How can you then say he was always opposed to the indiscriminate killing of civilians when he wouldn't condemn those very acts?

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing in his shoes, but that would have also made me a terrorist.

 

Definition

 

 

 

Systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective.

 

 

He was very wise to refuse to renounce violence imo. He had the moral high ground and no reason to "promise to be good" if they let him out. As a 15yo kid growing up there at the time I also wondered why he refused, but with hindsight it was a typically shrewd decision.

I was simply pointing out why your comment about what Mandela stood during the struggle against apartheid was incorrect, which you've obliquely acknowledged above.

 

I don't dispute for a second the massive good he did after prison - effectively preventing a race war.

[mig4villa]

Self-defence is no offence.  If you're attacked in the street i'm not going to moralise with you about which tactic you use to defend yourself!

There's not much talk about the violence of Apartheid from those criticising Mandela's stance.

     To be clear,  the minority of young ANC members who formed Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK: ‘Spear of the Nation’)  of which Nelson was one, were on a

hiding to nothing. Terrorism is the last desperate defiant act of the defeated, In this case borne out of the frustration of demands for simple democracy being met with extreme violence and mass murder.from the state.  MK were quickly arrested and imprisoned, along with the ANC leadership.

               It was the wave of Mass struggle of the 70's, the 'New Union Movement' in '73, the student & community revolts in Soweto and the other Townships,leading to the Mass struggles and strikes of the 80's, for which Mandela became the figurehead from his cell,  that finally forced the regime to negotiate with the ANC.

[momo]

 

 

 

Calling him a terrorist is ignorant. It is the usual suspects doing it, probably out of fear of bursting their own racist bubble. You should all read his speech at the trial when he was convicted. Educate yourself.

 

Excerpt

Quote

The only cure is to alter the conditions under which Africans are forced to live and to meet their legitimate grievances. Africans want to be paid a living wage. Africans want to perform work which they are capable of doing, and not work which the Government declares them to be capable of. We want to be allowed to live where we obtain work, and not be endorsed out of an area because we were not born there. We want to be allowed and not to be obliged to live in rented houses which we can never call our own. We want to be part of the general population, and not confined to living in our ghettoes. African men want to have their wives and children to live with them where they work, and not to be forced into an unnatural existence in men's hostels. Our women want to be with their men folk and not to be left permanently widowed in the reserves. We want to be allowed out after eleven o'clock at night and not to be confined to our rooms like little children. We want to be allowed to travel in our own country and to seek work where we want to, where we want to and not where the Labour Bureau tells us to. We want a just share in the whole of South Africa; we want security and a stake in society.

 

Above all, My Lord, we want equal political rights, because without them our disabilities will be permanent. I know this sounds revolutionary to the whites in this country, because the majority of voters will be Africans. This makes the white man fear democracy.

 

But this fear cannot be allowed to stand in the way of the only solution which will guarantee racial harmony and freedom for all. It is not true that the enfranchisement of all will result in racial domination. Political division, based on colour, is entirely artificial and, when it disappears, so will the domination of one colour group by another. The ANC has spent half a century fighting against racialism. When it triumphs as it certainly must, it will not change that policy.

 

During my lifetime I have dedicated my life to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons will live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal for which I hope to live for and to see realised. But, My Lord, if it needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.

Lol, that old chestnut getting rolled out for daring to disagree.  It's an old, sad and worn out line of personal attack, Momo. Give it up.

 

Mandela was without question the dictionary definition of a terrorist during his early career with the ANC.

 

Upon release from prison and election to the Presidency he became and behaved like a statesman of titanic proportions, for which he fully deserves the praise and kudos he has received.

 

It is entirely possible to accept those two seperate statements without suffering from cognitive dissonance or simply being a nasty waycist.

 

 

Agree with all except the bolded bit. In fact you seem as keen to roll out the tewwowist word as a lot of people are to roll out the waycist word. Considering what he was up against, I don't know what you suggest he might have done if he was serious about changing things. I don't know what dictionary you're using, and I don't think that's the point, the word terrorist to most people implies indiscriminate killing of civilians in order to draw attention to your cause. That is nothing like what Mandela was about at any stage.

 

I prefer that you quote my whole post and not reply to the sentence that offended you most. I know the truth hurts, but face the facts.

 

 

 

 

He refused to renounce the use of violence (or armed struggle if you prefer) when he was in jail.  How can you then say he was always opposed to the indiscriminate killing of civilians when he wouldn't condemn those very acts?

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same thing in his shoes, but that would have also made me a terrorist.

 

Definition

 

 

 

Systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective.

 

 

He was very wise to refuse to renounce violence imo. He had the moral high ground and no reason to "promise to be good" if they let him out. As a 15yo kid growing up there at the time I also wondered why he refused, but with hindsight it was a typically shrewd decision.

I was simply pointing out why your comment about what Mandela stood during the struggle against apartheid was incorrect, which you've obliquely acknowledged above.

 

I don't dispute for a second the massive good he did after prison - effectively preventing a race war.

 

 

And quoting a white man's dictionary does not make your argument valid. It only helps my argument. A true African knows that the true terrorists are those who colonized their continent, enslaved their people, ruled with iron fists and refused to acknowledge black people as equal. That white leaders hide behind office desks does not free them from atrocities they committed. Among many evil people, P W Botha and his supporter Margareth Tatcher where the true terrorists and killers of innocent people. It was so fun seeing the British leadership lick Mandela's ass after he was released, just like yours "he was good after the release". Bunch of hypocrites. NELSON ROLIHLAHLA MANDELA WAS ALWAYS GOOD! May he rest in peace.

Edited December 6, 2013 by momo

[thetrees]

A true African knows that the true terrorists are those who colonized their continent, enslaved their people, ruled with iron fists and refused to acknowledge black people as equal. That white leaders hide behind office desks does not free them from atrocities they committed. Among many evil people, P W Botha and his supporter Margareth Tatcher where the true terrorists and killers of innocent people. It was so fun seeing the British leadership lick Mandela's ass after he was released, just like yours "he was good after the release". Bunch of hypocrites. NELSON ROLIHLAHLA MANDELA WAS ALWAYS GOOD! May he rest in peace

Wow! That's some anger. These bits........

 

enslaved their people, ruled with iron fists and refused to acknowledge black people as equal.........and killers of innocent people

........could so easily apply to many black African leaders.

Edited December 7, 2013 by LancsVillan
Potentially offensive and/or racist remarks removed

[ChristchurchVillan]

Even if he had been a terrorist in his younger days, surely his work has more than made up for it since.

 

Bit like Gerry Adams of IRA infamy?