RIP Nelson Mandela Dies 1918- 2013

[CrackpotForeigner]

Somebody please point me to where I can read about Mandela's "atrocities", I would genuinely like to learn about them if indeed they exceeded what might be described as "armed resistance", which they don't as far as I've ever been aware.

[colhint]

There are 2 points here, One is Mandela was a great man. Massive, I'll bet he's the only global  political leader who will be missed by the majority. The second is the state of the country, well that's just the government, he resigned his position 16 years ago. Mandela created a unified SA It will probably take another 20 years to get the rest of it fixed

[Awol]

Somebody please point me to where I can read about Mandela's "atrocities", I would genuinely like to learn about them if indeed they exceeded what might be described as "armed resistance", which they don't as far as I've ever been aware.

Mandela was the founder of Umkhonto we Siswe (“Spear of the People”), the ANC’s terrorist arm. I'm pretty sure I've read that he signed off on the Chruch Street car bomb which killed 16 and wounded 100's.

 

Google is your friend.

[drat01]

There are 2 points here, One is Mandela was a great man. Massive, I'll bet he's the only global  political leader who will be missed by the majority. The second is the state of the country, well that's just the government, he resigned his position 16 years ago. Mandela created a unified SA It will probably take another 20 years to get the rest of it fixed

If not longer - BUT now they have the chances to get it fixed. As said its a whole bunch of massive changes that have happened in a very small amount of time. Done with little retribution against the past regime and done with many more positives than negatives.

 

No country in the world a perfect place to live, but the old SA regime that Mandella and many others led a fight against was certainly a pretty bad place

[CrackpotForeigner]

Google is your friend.

 

 

Yours too

 

Mandela was in the slammer at the time, and "go ahead with the bomb attack"-type communications were frowned upon by the prison authorities. Oliver Tambo signed off on it.

 

I suppose it's conceivable that Mandela could have tacitly approved it, but even so, there's a difference between attacks on civilians and attacks on military targets with incidental civilian casualties (neither to be recommended obviously).

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

 

bring back the good old days

Woah woah woah! Just before we try to turn this into an "oh he said something bad about Nelson Mandela, he must be a racist and supporter of apartheid" thread, I just want to make clear that is not my belief AT ALL!!

 

I have the greatest respect for Nelson Mandela as a statesman and as a guy. However he was limited in his achievements and abilities. The truth being, however unpalatable it may be, that the transition from old regime to new was not particularly well managed under his watch. I don't see how anybody can adjudge that the oft quoted stats of average life expectancy dropping by 10 years or the doubling of the number of people living in poverty as a rip roaring success, in fact I can't see it as anything but abject failure.

 

I have lived and worked in SA and I have no intention of getting into a 'I have more friends than you' contest with you Drat, I understand you are voicing an opinion based on what you have experienced, I am doing the same. I hope your horse isn't so high that you think other people can't have differing views to your own without branding them as ignorant or racist. Oh and on the terrorist point, it's a merely a question of semantics. The dictionary defines terrorism as 'the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims', on that basis, yes I do think Mandela was a terrorist. Whether I think he was justified is a completely different question.

[drat01]

 

 

bring back the good old days

Woah woah woah! Just before we try to turn this into an "oh he said something bad about Nelson Mandela, he must be a racist and supporter of apartheid" thread, I just want to make clear that is not my belief AT ALL!!

 

I have the greatest respect for Nelson Mandela as a statesman and as a guy. However he was limited in his achievements and abilities. The truth being, however unpalatable it may be, that the transition from old regime to new was not particularly well managed under his watch. I don't see how anybody can adjudge that the oft quoted stats of average life expectancy dropping by 10 years or the doubling of the number of people living in poverty as a rip roaring success, in fact I can't see it as anything but abject failure.

 

I have lived and worked in SA and I have no intention of getting into a 'I have more friends than you' contest with you Drat, I understand you are voicing an opinion based on what you have experienced, I am doing the same. I hope your horse isn't so high that you think other people can't have differing views to your own without branding them as ignorant or racist. Oh and on the terrorist point, it's a merely a question of semantics. The dictionary defines terrorism as 'the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims', on that basis, yes I do think Mandela was a terrorist. Whether I think he was justified is a completely different question.

 

No need for the horse comment, especially as mine is a mere pony. (well that is what a cockney friend told me :-) )

 

As said I have explained why I commented on my views, and asked you for why you answered in the way that you did - something I am still not convinced you have, but that is another converstaion probably off line etc.

[GarethRDR]

Bloody hell, does this mean no more Alcopops?

[turnbull]

Good timing really, at least this has diverted attention away from England's inept performance in the 2nd test.

[colhint]

 

There are 2 points here, One is Mandela was a great man. Massive, I'll bet he's the only global  political leader who will be missed by the majority. The second is the state of the country, well that's just the government, he resigned his position 16 years ago. Mandela created a unified SA It will probably take another 20 years to get the rest of it fixed

If not longer - BUT now they have the chances to get it fixed. As said its a whole bunch of massive changes that have happened in a very small amount of time. Done with little retribution against the past regime and done with many more positives than negatives.

 

No country in the world a perfect place to live, but the old SA regime that Mandella and many others led a fight against was certainly a pretty bad place

 

 

 

Couldn't agree more Drat

[MakemineVanilla]

R.I.P.

 

He was an icon and handled post-apartheid South Africa very well. At least he's not suffering anymore.

 

It's just a shame some are bringing political agendas into this thread.

 

But it is political and it can't be avoided.

 

No one can really doubt that Mandela deserves every accolade because whatever he did or was prepared to do, it cannot be denied that he almost certainly prevented a civil war by his intelligence and moral fortitude.

 

The process of truth and reconciliation which facilitated the transition from apartheid to democracy stands as a miracle of moderation and political intelligence which never ceases to be amazing, especially in these days of permanent civil war across north Africa and the near East.

 

But even bearing this miracle in mind, it is impossible not to be cynical about how Mandela has been used by Righty-whitey to construct a narrative of denial about the crimes of colonialism and the extent of the establishment's racism in dealing with the post-colonial distribution of wealth, opportunity and justice.

 

Not to mention the murder, either sponsored by, or with the acquiescence of foreign powers.

 

I think for ordinary white folks, we have to accept that the beatification of Mandela almost certainly arises from the fact that he helped us all deal with our own white guilt, whose message of peace and moderation did not challenge white hegemony too strongly, and which mostly left white privilege untouched and our own vanities and denials intact.

 

It all too often seems that from our shocking unwillingness to criticise South Africa and the rest of sub-Saharan African countries, that our main concern was always about dealing with our guilt, and since that has been dealt with, we consider the job is done.

 

But that is only my own perception.

[chrisp65]

Good timing really, at least this has diverted attention away from England's inept performance in the 2nd test.

take it to the conspiracy thread?

[DelboyVilla]

RIP to a great man and one of the true icons of the twentith century. A man truly loved by his counrty and throughout the World. 

 

A man who when he was released from prison could have justifibly gone home and lived out his days with his family who he had been kept from for so long but instead chose to help the country he loved make the transtition from one of the most oppressive regimes we have seen in the modern World to the democarcy we see today. OK the change has not been without problems but after 50 years of violently enforced segregation its no surprise that oppressed masses were going to find suddenly ruling the nation difficult.

 

Through all this Mandela made sure that South Africa was a untied nation where all could live in harmony. He didn't run around stringing up the white oppressors to the nearest tree. Mistakes were no doubt made but from the few South African friends I have the country is slowly getting better.

 

If only some of our politicians had 1% of the qualities of Mandela then this country would benefit greatly.

 

Mandela's legacy will long out live that of Blair, Thachter, Obama and Cameron and quite right to.

[CrackpotForeigner]

But it is political and it can't be avoided.

 

No one can really doubt that Mandela deserves every accolade because whatever he did or was prepared to do, it cannot be denied that he almost certainly prevented a civil war by his intelligence and moral fortitude.

 

The process of truth and reconciliation which facilitated the transition from apartheid to democracy stands as a miracle of moderation and political intelligence which never ceases to be amazing, especially in these days of permanent civil war across north Africa and the near East.

 

But even bearing this miracle in mind, it is impossible not to be cynical about how Mandela has been used by Righty-whitey to construct a narrative of denial about the crimes of colonialism and the extent of the establishment's racism in dealing with the post-colonial distribution of wealth, opportunity and justice.

 

Not to mention the murder, either sponsored by, or with the acquiescence of foreign powers.

 

I think for ordinary white folks, we have to accept that the beatification of Mandela almost certainly arises from the fact that he helped us all deal with our own white guilt, whose message of peace and moderation did not challenge white hegemony too strongly, and which mostly left white privilege untouched and our own vanities and denials intact.

 

It all too often seems that from our shocking unwillingness to criticise South Africa and the rest of sub-Saharan African countries, that our main concern was always about dealing with our guilt, and since that has been dealt with, we consider the job is done.

 

But that is only my own perception.

 

 

There's maybe a grain of truth there, but I wouldn't say "white privilege" has really been left intact. From the point of view of someone living in a shantytown it would certainly be easy to say that it has, but short of flat-out redistribution of wealth, I don't know how things could be done much more fairly.

 

SA has a strict Affirmative Action programme in place: As an employer the racial breakdown of your company at all levels is required by law to reflect the demographic profile of the country. This often means that completely unskilled people are pushed into positions that they aren't competent to fill, and also means that as a white person, being competent is no longer a guarantee of a job. When the positions in question are important ones that involve fulfilling the needs of the people, this often means that things are done considerably less well than they might be, and SAfricans of all races bear the consequences.

 

The upside to Affirmative Action is that there is a growing black middle class, which is a wonderful thing for many reasons.

 

As for a redistribution of wealth, this has happened to an extent. A lot of, if not most, of the big mining houses are now owned by black businessmen. There is a policy of land distribution as well, but perhaps wisely this has been carried out only in a limited fashion. Land redistribution is a dangerous game to play in terms of the food security of the country, as Zimbabwe has learned. Much of the time the land ends up in the hands of corrupt politicians with little interest in farming, and even fewer skills.

 

With regard to redistributing the wealth from the white middle class, I can see why many might regard this as a good thing to do. I don't, and I think and hope that my reasoning is about more than self-interest. Middle class SAfricans don't live more extravagantly than middle class white folk in any of the other colonies, or even in the UK and US, they contribute a huge proportion of their earnings in taxes (well over 40%) and provide jobs to domestic workers who would otherwise have little prospect of employment. Personally I think that any redistribution of wealth should start with corrupt politicians and mega-rich mining magnates.

 

It is also not always a good thing to get too carried away about white guilt regarding the colonial past, etc, etc. People often lose sight of the fact that Africans have just as bad a record of ruling Africans as Europeans do. African countries were laid out by the colonial land grab, rather than along tribal lines, with the result that in most African countries tribal issues are hugely significant in the politics, much like racial issues in SA.

[coda]

 

Good timing really, at least this has diverted attention away from England's inept performance in the 2nd test.

take it to the conspiracy thread?

 

 

He dies on the day of the premiere of his new film. Bit too convenient.

[thetrees]

Minutes applausing at the weekend footie fixtures.

A bit OTT, but I guess that is the world that we live in.

[Awol]

I guess that is the world that we live in.

Yep, a society increasingly drowning in sentimentality and emotional porn. 

 

Quite what relevance the death of a nice old dude has to the football going public of another nation two continents away is questionable.  A few documentaries on the BBC should cover it.

 

The Diana guff was the tipping point and it's been downhill since then, imho.

[chrisp65]

 

 

Good timing really, at least this has diverted attention away from England's inept performance in the 2nd test.

take it to the conspiracy thread?

 

 

He dies on the day of the premiere of his new film. Bit too convenient.

 

 

That was the first thing my missus said!

 

She had a mental picture of the bean counters and suits involved in the film punching the air whilst typing out condolences and platitudes.

[Stevo985]

Quite what relevance the death of a nice old dude has to the football going public of another nation two continents away is questionable

To be fair, he did have an influence on sport.

Maybe not football directly (although wasn't he involved in South Africa's bid for the 2010 world cup?) but certainly the sporting world.

I don't think sport paying tribute is particularly OTT.

[chrisp65]

 

I guess that is the world that we live in.

Yep, a society increasingly drowning in sentimentality and emotional porn. 

 

Quite what relevance the death of a nice old dude has to the football going public of another nation two continents away is questionable.  A few documentaries on the BBC should cover it.

 

The Diana guff was the tipping point and it's been downhill since then, imho.

 

 

It's a tricky one, he did have a sport influence in that sport had boycotts successful and broken around apartheid. Also, he was about as high profile a world leader as there is. But by the same token, the list does grow longer and longer of people we are supposed to commemorate at sport and yes, since that Diana death porn we have been encouraged to look harder and harder for something to grieve. I'm not sure I want a return to stoicism and stiff upper lips in all circumstances ever, but we do need to get a bit of a grip.

 

I know there is an obscure cup game in North Wales tomorrow where they've already agreed a minute's silence will be observed. It feels a little irrelevant to the game at hand, but equally, I'll happily respect it.