The History Thread

[MakemineVanilla]

 

 

Even in a post about World War 1, MMV's bizarre opinion on women is front and centre.

 

So odd.

 

Well, I find it odd that demanding that men's sacrifices be fully acknowledged, is considered anti-women, yet women demanding that female contributions be acknowledged, is accepted without demur.

 

No. What you're "demanding" is that instead of using the word "people" to refer to those who have lost their lives through war (don't forget that remembrance Sunday is about ALL wars, not just WW1, despite the timing of the event) they use the word "men".

 

Which would then suggest that ONLY men have ever sacrificed their lives in times of war. Which is, of course, completely false, even if it may be true that they represent a large majority. In that case you would effectively be excluding women's sacrifices.

 

It's a quite frankly bizarre "demand".

 

 

No, the Tower of London poppies are all about commemoration of the ending of WW1.

 

The BBC:

 

 

 

Large crowds saw 13-year-old army cadet Harry Hayes place the last of 888,246 flowers, each representing a British military death in World War One

 

My comments were specifically about that fact.

[Wainy316]

 

 

Even in a post about World War 1, MMV's bizarre opinion on women is front and centre.

 

So odd.

 

Well, I find it odd that demanding that men's sacrifices be fully acknowledged, is considered anti-women, yet women demanding that female contributions be acknowledged, is accepted without demur.

 

No. What you're "demanding" is that instead of using the word "people" to refer to those who have lost their lives through war (don't forget that remembrance Sunday is about ALL wars, not just WW1, despite the timing of the event) they use the word "men".

 

Which would then suggest that ONLY men have ever sacrificed their lives in times of war. Which is, of course, completely false, even if it may be true that they represent a large majority. In that case you would effectively be excluding women's sacrifices.

 

It's a quite frankly bizarre "demand".

 

 

 

I think we should also make it known that we are particularly commending the actions and sacrifices of white people during the great war.  

[mjmooney]

At least the men at the sharp end of war have guns to shoot back with. Tell the tens of thousands of women who are routinely raped and killed in every war that men have a worse time of it.

[villa4europe]

good german film about that but i cant remember the name of it

 

i dont think the russian soldiers that remained in germany after the war were particularly nice, im sure the rape victims in berlin alone went in to the millions

Edited November 12, 2014 by villa4europe

[MakemineVanilla]

good german film about that but i cant remember the name of it

 

i dont think the russian soldiers that remained in germany after the war were particularly nice, im sure the rape victims in berlin alone went in to the millions

 

It is a major theme in Antony Beevor's Berlin: The Downfall 1945.

[chrisp65]

It has been interesting this week to see how the end of WW1 has been commemorated and how different the ceremonies have been in Germany, France and the UK.

 

While the French chose to include the names of the German dead at their national war memorial, the British have repeated the self-serving narrative of national sacrifice, rather than embracing one of avoidable European and global tragedy.

 

I thought the poppy thing was a bit tacky and the choice of venue seemed to suggest historical symbolism I didn't quite understand - symbol of sacrifices made for the continuance of the monarchy, perhaps?

 

The young boy cadet placing the last poppy, just looked like a symbol of the national willingness to sacrifice the next generation for some future President's war. 

 

The UK narrative has shifted but not in a way I agree with.

 

The schoolgirls who attended, dominated the television pictures and made their rehearsed tributes, referred to the million dead, whose sacrifice the poppies are supposed to symbolise, as 'people'; a glaringly gender-neutral choice of word, being that those either persuaded or compelled to sacrifice their lives, were exclusively men.

 

It seems it won't be long before volunteering to work in a factory is seen as just as much of a sacrifice, as being conscripted to fight in the trenches.

 

Let us not forget who it was who made the biggest sacrifices: it wasn't everyone, it was men.

 

I know you can sometimes appear to post for effect, but that is particularly uninformed and particularly offensive.

You've clearly read that no females died on the front line and no nurse died at the hands of the enemy, you've taken that and run with it.

 

You've then either deliberately ignored female workers dying of typhoid whilst helping the troops or 'forgotten' all the women that died of slow poisoning or explosions in munitions works. There are 655 women officially recognised as war dead but this is not the full number. Many local graves and local commemorative memorials around the country recognise the local women that died as part of the war effort. These are sometimes not 'recognised' or counted nationally.

 

But the bare statistics aren't that important are they? It was people that sacrificed lives, not a class a colour a creed or a sex. 

 

Or was this an attempt to drag the war dead into your recent ukipesque narrative of feminism declining to take on dangerous 'man' work?

[Stevo985]

You're like Karl Pilkington

He's not. Pilks is way more innocent.

[lapal_fan]

Outstanding post Chrisp.

Much more eloquently put than I managed. Let myself down

[chrisp65]

I was actually hovering over the 'ignore', he'd have been only my second ever ignore.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I'm really annoyed by that post MMV. Nothing more to add that hasn't already been said.

[lapal_fan]

We've probably all seen the rise and demise of posters over the years, but just wow.

[MakemineVanilla]

 

It has been interesting this week to see how the end of WW1 has been commemorated and how different the ceremonies have been in Germany, France and the UK.

 

While the French chose to include the names of the German dead at their national war memorial, the British have repeated the self-serving narrative of national sacrifice, rather than embracing one of avoidable European and global tragedy.

 

I thought the poppy thing was a bit tacky and the choice of venue seemed to suggest historical symbolism I didn't quite understand - symbol of sacrifices made for the continuance of the monarchy, perhaps?

 

The young boy cadet placing the last poppy, just looked like a symbol of the national willingness to sacrifice the next generation for some future President's war. 

 

The UK narrative has shifted but not in a way I agree with.

 

The schoolgirls who attended, dominated the television pictures and made their rehearsed tributes, referred to the million dead, whose sacrifice the poppies are supposed to symbolise, as 'people'; a glaringly gender-neutral choice of word, being that those either persuaded or compelled to sacrifice their lives, were exclusively men.

 

It seems it won't be long before volunteering to work in a factory is seen as just as much of a sacrifice, as being conscripted to fight in the trenches.

 

Let us not forget who it was who made the biggest sacrifices: it wasn't everyone, it was men.

 

I know you can sometimes appear to post for effect, but that is particularly uninformed and particularly offensive.

You've clearly read that no females died on the front line and no nurse died at the hands of the enemy, you've taken that and run with it.

 

You've then either deliberately ignored female workers dying of typhoid whilst helping the troops or 'forgotten' all the women that died of slow poisoning or explosions in munitions works. There are 655 women officially recognised as war dead but this is not the full number. Many local graves and local commemorative memorials around the country recognise the local women that died as part of the war effort. These are sometimes not 'recognised' or counted nationally.

 

But the bare statistics aren't that important are they? It was people that sacrificed lives, not a class a colour a creed or a sex. 

 

Or was this an attempt to drag the war dead into your recent ukipesque narrative of feminism declining to take on dangerous 'man' work?

 

 

Look, it is only my opinion.

 

I just think that 800 thousand male deaths and 1.6 million wounded, compared with 655 female deaths, suggests that men made by far the biggest sacrifice in WW1, which should be acknowledged.

 

What is wrong with that?

 

You are perfectly free to disagree and besides, everyone definitely thinks I am wrong and agree with you, so where's the problem? 

[Stevo985]

Its just bizarre. This seems to be purely because a schoolgirl used the word "people" instead of "men".

I don't think it would be such a huge deal if you hadn't already shown yourself to have a rather odd view of the female sex.

[Paddywhack]

Reminds me of a time in primary school when I bragged to a very uninterested girl that there was more men than women on earth.

 

Just did a quick google, turns out that was ill informed, futile, cobblers too.

[MakemineVanilla]

Its just bizarre. This seems to be purely because a schoolgirl used the word "people" instead of "men".

I don't think it would be such a huge deal if you hadn't already shown yourself to have a rather odd view of the female sex.

 

Exactly so, but surely when we have at least two threads dedicated to things which irritate, from the use of brackets to goodness knows what, I can be forgiven for being irritated by a news story.

[Wainy316]

I wonder which football team had the most supporters die during the war? Maybe we should only commemorate supporters of that team.

[donnie]

.

Edited November 12, 2014 by donnie

[donnie]

At least the men at the sharp end of war have guns to shoot back with. Tell the tens of thousands of women who are routinely raped and killed in every war that men have a worse time of it.

This is the best and most accurate post. No need to hound MMV for saying something incorrect.

Edited November 12, 2014 by donnie

[Paddywhack]

 

The amount of 'white knights' that come out of the closet on off topic always makes me chuckle. Always the same people as well although there are probably only around 10 posters in off topic anyway, this is possibly why hardly anyone posts. Jesus wept, what he said wasn't offensive. He is wrong,totally wrong but hardly a public hanging offence and nothing to be annoyed and so outraged about.

 

 

Sorry Donnie.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Paddywhack

[tonyh29]

.

That's twice now (that I've seen at least )where you've gone off on a bit of a rant against posters on here and then deleted the post

If you are going to slag members off maybe give them the courtesy of leaving the posts so they can see it and answer the charges you levy at them ..