Spurs

[TartarugaJones]

 

The real art of negotiation is first being good at working how much a thing is worth, and then being good at buying it for less than that and on no accounts buying it for more than that. I would say the absolute key skill is in walking away, because psychologically it is the hardest thing to do. It is the quality that marks out the experts from the rest of us.

So, in the case of a football transfer if you think player A is worth £15m and the selling club thinks he's worth £20m, should you:

A: Not pay a penny more than £15m.

B: Pay £20m and have done with it.

C: Offer to split the difference and pay £17.5m

You might however criticise Levy's valuations (such as we can guess at them),

You're right, assuming both parties want to come to an agreement. However, if you're buying a something that is not for sale, you pay the askin price or bugger off. If my house wasn't for sale, and someone knocked at the door trying to buy it, they'd have to pay a lot more than normal market price, as I don't want to sell it. Why would I negotiate? You came to me, pay up or bugger off.

Sorry for the massive quote... Posting on mobile so formatting is tricky.

 

 

In the case where the two parties don't agree on the valuation then you're right a deal can't be done and the putative buyer buggers off.

[TartarugaJones]

For Spurs to be seemingly willing to pay in the region of £26m for a 28 with no experience in the PL seems a little like desperation to me.

 

They could seemingly have had a just turned 22 year old with all be it limited experience in the PL for a similar price.

 

I rate Levy, I think he has done a fantastic job over the years but to use an old phrase I think he screwed the pooch on this one.

 

He turned 28 two weeks ago. You're right though it's a lot of money and frankly I'm surprised we're pushing for it. Rumours say this is the one VB really wants so perhaps Levy's thinking about keeping one of his prize assets happy? I know he also made some uncharacteristic big-ticket purchases when he was desperate and Redknapp had first joined the club. TBH I'm much happier at the prospect of spending £20m plus add-ons on for Soldado than I was when we spent £27m on Defoe and Keane in Harry's first Transfer Window. What's striking is that the dea is virtually the same as we offered you for Benteke, I remember saying in that thread at the time that if Benteke really was valued at £25m by Villa then we'd probably go for one of our other striker targets, It's an interesting one whether Soldado for less than Benteke is better for us as a club: on the one hand Soldado has proven pedigree, his record at Getafe and Valencia over four years being (Goals / Played) 16/26, 18/34, 17/32, 24/35, he's an aVB type number 9, and has just entered his prime, but we won't get anything back on that fee, so it's all about what he can do in the next two or three years, on the other hand Benteke's pedigree is not yet proven, but he has all the qualities to suggest he will, plus a very impressive debut PL season in which he got better and better, and of course his prime is yet to come and so he's a player both for now and also a saleable asset in the future if a bigger club comes along. Normally I'd be drawn to Benteke, but I guess the fact that he's a few million more expensive has to be taken into account. Obviously Levy and VB see Soldado as representing better value.

[TrentVilla]

 

He turned 28 two weeks ago. You're right though it's a lot of money and frankly I'm surprised we're pushing for it. Rumours say this is the one VB really wants so perhaps Levy's thinking about keeping one of his prize assets happy? 

 

Rumours you say? Would these be the famous Spurs ITK's who said Benteke was a done deal?

 

I'm sure you will pardon me for mocking them, I'm not mocking you. 

 

You see they are bound to say he is the one VB really wants but the reality is he appears to be the 3rd or perhaps even 4th target behind Damiao, Benteke and more than likely Villa although that isn't confirmed.

 

I've previously argued in support of Levy and I still think he is an excellent chairman but honestly, to argue that Soldado is the one they always wanted doesn't really stand up to scrutiny if you ask me.

[TrentVilla]

 

I remember saying in that thread at the time that if Benteke really was valued at £25m by Villa then we'd probably go for one of our other striker targets, It's an interesting one whether Soldado for less than Benteke is better for us as a club: on the one hand Soldado has proven pedigree, his record at Getafe and Valencia over four years being (Goals / Played) 16/26, 18/34, 17/32, 24/35, he's an aVB type number 9, and has just entered his prime, but we won't get anything back on that fee, so it's all about what he can do in the next two or three years, on the other hand Benteke's pedigree is not yet proven, but he has all the qualities to suggest he will, plus a very impressive debut PL season in which he got better and better, and of course his prime is yet to come and so he's a player both for now and also a saleable asset in the future if a bigger club comes along. Normally I'd be drawn to Benteke, but I guess the fact that he's a few million more expensive has to be taken into account. Obviously Levy and VB see Soldado as representing better value.

 

An interesting debate.

 

In your position I'd much rather go for Benteke than Soldado.

 

Yes Soldado has proven pedigree but in Spanish football not in English football and that is a significant factor and one that I'd be taking greater account of than you seem to be doing.  There are no guarantee's with signing any player but signing one from overseas is always more risky than signing one that has a track record in English football even if it is only for one season.

 

You talk about proven pedigree as if having succeeded in Spain automatically means someone will succeed in English football but it really doesn't work that way.

 

I'm sure you remember Fernando Morientes and his ill-fated spell at Liverpool, the guy could hardly have had more pedigree but he was a complete failure. He was also 28 by the way, certainly not an age I'd consider to be the peak or the prime of a striker.

 

Morientes simply couldn't deal with the pace or power of the PL, certainly not something Benteke struggled with but there is no guarantee Soldado will be able to adapt and scoring goals in Spain really is meaningless in that regard.

 

So you say Benteke's pedigree isn't proven yet but he is more proven than Soldado in PL football and that means something in my book and in most peoples books. I would also add Benteke had a very decent scoring record for Genk before joining us.

 

There are lots of other reasons why Benteke would have been a better purchase, not least as you say potential resale value but also things like longevity of service. 

 

I can't for the life of me agree that Soldado represents better value than Benteke, not that I'm complaining obviously.

[TartarugaJones]

 

 

Valencia said they want €30m and that they don't need to sell him.

 

Maybe Levy should realise that he has no right to get favours from teams, if they have a valuation just meet it, if you can't afford to meet it then look elsewhere. 

 

Not sure you've grasped the art of negotiation there Samjip!!

 

 

I think I have to be honest Tartar! Or at least Levy's art anyway.

 

2012:

 

Levy: Hey Valencia, can we buy Roberto?

Valencia: Sure, €30m.

Levy: Erm, how about €22m?

Valencia: No, €30m or nothing, we don't need to sell.

 

2013:

 

Levy: Hey Valencia, can we buy Roberto?

Valencia: Sure, but again, we want €30m.

Levy: Erm, how about €22m?

Valencia: No, €30m or nothing, we don't need to sell.

Levy: Okay, okay how about €26m?

Valencia: No, €30m or nothing, we don't need to sell.

 

---

 

Of course I've shortened the processes a bit, but that seems to be the basics of his method.

 

Do you think if Man United offered £30m for Bale, Levy would drop his asking price and accept? Of course not, he is your prized asset, he isn't for sale and you have every right to ask for what you want. You don't need to sell him, you don't want to sell him, so if you're going to sell him you're going to get what you want for him.

 

 

One thing I've noticed about Levy is that he likes to identify distressed sellers and this has paid dividends right back to the £2m we paid for Lennon and £6m for Keane of Leeds, through the deal with Southampton to remove the add-ons and sell-on clause, onto the players we bought back from Portsmouth, also with Holtby, and with Ade from City. Of course it's **** obvious and all clubs must do it. It's the reason why Villa didn't need to sell and the reason why Valencia might...

[TartarugaJones]

 

 

He turned 28 two weeks ago. You're right though it's a lot of money and frankly I'm surprised we're pushing for it. Rumours say this is the one VB really wants so perhaps Levy's thinking about keeping one of his prize assets happy? 

 

Rumours you say? Would these be the famous Spurs ITK's who said Benteke was a done deal?

 

I'm sure you will pardon me for mocking them, I'm not mocking you. 

 

You see they are bound to say he is the one VB really wants but the reality is he appears to be the 3rd or perhaps even 4th target behind Damiao, Benteke and more than likely Villa although that isn't confirmed.

 

I've previously argued in support of Levy and I still think he is an excellent chairman but honestly, to argue that Soldado is the one they always wanted doesn't really stand up to scrutiny if you ask me.

 

 

Not sure any of the one's I believe have genuine connections called it a done deal. 25% sell-on was the rumoured sticking point with the argument being that was de facto more than £25m straight up, no idea if that was true or not, but I guess it may have been?

 

I take your point on Spurs ITK though, we do have our fair share of Wums and also fans willing to believe them.

 

I don't know if Soldado was AVB's first choice, but he is in the Falcao mode.

 

Soldado doesn't seem better value to me either, but I guess it depends on the terms of the deal Villa wanted and the terms of the deal we strike with Valencia, if we strike a deal with Valencia. Personally I won't be surprised if we end up with Kenwynne Jones or something   

Edited July 23, 2013 by TartarugaJones

[ArteSuave]

I don't know if Soldado was AVB's first choice, but he is in the Falcao mode.

 

Assuming you mean mould, I don't really agree. And why would being in the Falcao mould mean he would have been AVB's first choice?

[TartarugaJones]

 

I don't know if Soldado was AVB's first choice, but he is in the Falcao mode.

 

Assuming you mean mould, I don't really agree. And why would being in the Falcao mould mean he would have been AVB's first choice?

 

 

I probably did mean mould, though can't decide if mode works too! I mean an out and out number 9, a man who's there to score goals and not much else, as opposed to Benteke who's a big number 9 and is there to hold up play to get his head on every clearance and will contribute more than goals, but perhaps is not quite the same poacher in the box?

[peterms]

One thing I've noticed about Levy is that he likes to identify distressed sellers ... Of course it's **** obvious and all clubs must do it.

As you say, it's obvious. To buy cheaply from distressed sellers, you need cash in hand and the luxury of choice. What's starting to happen now is that Levy is increasingly being portrayed as a distressed buyer, with less cash than he needs for the players he's asking after, and with time starting to tick away. There seem to be a few expressions of concern coming from the fans, though I don't pretend to follow their forums.

[ArteSuave]

 

 

I don't know if Soldado was AVB's first choice, but he is in the Falcao mode.

 

Assuming you mean mould, I don't really agree. And why would being in the Falcao mould mean he would have been AVB's first choice?

 

 

I probably did mean mould, though can't decide if mode works too! I mean an out and out number 9, a man who's there to score goals and not much else, as opposed to Benteke who's a big number 9 and is there to hold up play to get his head on every clearance and will contribute more than goals, but perhaps is not quite the same poacher in the box?

 

 

Ehh, I don't know if I'm being harsh but I'd say Soldado is pretty much a poacher and little else (ie. all his goals are 1 touch finishes around the 6 yard box) whereas Falcao is far more comfortable running with the ball, taking players on, shooting from distance etc. (more complete) as well as having the excellent knack of finishing off the chances his team creates.

 

That's not to say that being worse than Falcao makes you naff but I think every team (inc. spurs) would much rather a complete player up front than a one dimensional one. In that regard, I'd say Benteke fitted the bill far better.

 

If it is just a pure goal scorer who provides little else you're after though, we've got just the feller.

[VillaChris]

My thoughts too. He's good but he's not that good. But then Spurs are getting desperate for a striker.

 

Who's better out of him and Negredo, La Liga watchers? Or at least will apart better to English football? Always confusing the two and both look to have similar records.

[vandaq]

Wow sunderland looked pretty good at times against them. Sunderland - Tottenham 3-1 

[ArteSuave]

My thoughts too. He's good but he's not that good. But then Spurs are getting desperate for a striker.

Who's better out of him and Negredo, La Liga watchers? Or at least will apart better to English football? Always confusing the two and both look to have similar records.

Similar players but Negredo has a few more strings in his bow. He also seems to score more goals while playing in a weaker team.

[Keyblade]

Yes they did. Those signings aren't looking too bad eh? Granted, it was a second string Spurs side. Almost none of their starting XI were playing.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Keyblade

[vandaq]

Even so, wasnt it like the first match for sunderland or something? It was ridiculous how easy they could counter at times. 

[BOF]

I believe conditions were ridiculous (monsoon) and the match was only played when Scudamore forced the officials to go back on the pitch. Verthongen got himself a bad looking injury on the cut up pitch too. But hey you can't mess with TV schedules can you.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Sunderland's front three have a nice balance, on paper.

 

Workhorse, flair, target man.

Edited July 24, 2013 by CarewsEyebrowDesigner

[vandaq]

Gotta love those asian fans though. I saw some spurs,arsenal,manchester united and city and sunderland fans. I think I saw a Ac Milan shirt there. I am sure I missed some, but I was hoping I would spot that odd villa fan for himself

[Czechlad]

Sunderland's front three have a nice balance, on paper.

 

Workhorse, flair, target man.

I think Jozy Altidore is a vastly underrated striker right now because people still deem him as a failure because of his time at Hull. He is a completely different player than he was back then. I really do believe Sunderland got a very good striker for relatively cheap. 

[theunderstudy]

 

 

 

I don't think Levy has grasped the art of negotiation either.

 

"The price is £30 million."

"£25 million?"

"£30 million."

"£20 million plus (insert overpriced, over the hill, overpaid player he doesn't want)."

"£30 million."

"£27.5 million. Final offer."

"We don't want or have to sell anyway. Sod off."

 

Another master class.

 

 

The real art of negotiation is first being good at working how much a thing is worth, and then being good at buying it for less than that and on no accounts buying it for more than that. I would say the absolute key skill is in walking away, because psychologically it is the hardest thing to do. It is the quality that marks out the experts from the rest of us.

 

So, in the case of a football transfer if you think player A is worth £15m and the selling club thinks he's worth £20m, should you:

 

A: Not pay a penny more than £15m.

B: Pay £20m and have done with it.

C: Offer to split the difference and pay £17.5m

 

You might however criticise Levy's valuations (such as we can guess at them),

 

No, the right decision would be to spend that little bit more for the thing you need the most, not walking away because you can't find perfection for a pittance.