Chop chop! Lets all gawp at Newcastle (again)

[HanoiVillan]

17 hours ago, Genie said:

So people write pages and pages of personal insults about him, abuse his son, throw things at him and because he said “that should shut a few people up” (which is bang on the money) everybody wets their pants.

As I said before, this is why so many Villa fans dislike him, because he had a tiny little nibble back at them and who’d blame him.

 

I completely agree with this, 100%, and -

*hard hat on, gets ready to annoy probably everybody*

I really feel this is a wider issue in our culture in this country. Maybe every country has something similar, but I know this country, and I see it all the time. We have a problem that some people might call hypocrisy, but I think it's a Can-Dish-It-Out-But-Can't-Take-It problem, and it's everywhere. For example:

• You see it in people who love to say that other people have said something offensive, but then when someone points out that they have said something offensive, they immediately retreat to 'it was just banter' or 'I was only joking' as an impenetrable defence;
• You see it in comedy, in the career of someone like Ricky Gervais, whose whole career is based on punching down at people less fortunate than himself, but who takes his own extremely banal, read-it-in-the-Times-editorial-section opinions about what the damn kids are up to so extraordinarily seriously;
• You see it in the tabloid media, who claim that running articles abusing Megan Markle for crossing her legs is them performing some sort of valuable constitutional scrutiny role, but who also claim that setting up an independent regulator to check they meet the most basic professional and ethical standards is literal Stalinism;
• and you absolutely see it in football fans, who happily laugh at a man having a vegetable thrown at him in public, while he attempts to do his job in front of 30,000 people braying about how much they think he's a clearing in the woods, but think that the same manager expressing that winning a match (for their football team FFS) should 'shut a few people up' is some sort of deep slight and offense which they are justified in feeling all butt hurt about. 

It's the same dynamic. We love saying on the playground 'you can dish it out but you can't take it', but we've created a whole culture of it, and once you've seen it, you can't stop seeing it everywhere. 

[Rob182]

11 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Yeah I missed Stuart's posts to be fair.

Although there is a grain of truth in what he is saying. Some people are a bit blinded by their hatred of Bruce to anything positive the guy does.

Are they though?

I've seen you (and others) say this a few times, but I don't think it's the case. Just because some Villa fans do dislike him, and cite his obvious flaws, doesn't mean that they also don't see the positives of what he's done.

Plenty of Villa fans on here (myself included), have agreed that he has his positives (defence stability/ good team mentality/ good signings like McGinn, Abraham loan, Snodgrass loan, Tuanzebe loan (even though he used Tuanzebe wrongly)), but often the reason this thread is bumped will be because of a negative that ends up being discussed. We're not going to bump a thread, saying "oh, look, Bruce making excuses again....." because of something he's said at Newcastle, followed by "but he does set up a nice defence". 

I think it's wrong to say that some Villa fans are blinded to believe anything positive about him.

[useless]

Bruce said 'that should shut one or two up', after we beat Rotherham 2-0, it was our first win six games and by the time Bruce left it was our only win in ten games, the negative reaction to those comments were because Bruce had spoken as if he'd proved some point by beating one of the worst teams in the league, when he spoke of shutting people up he meant those calling for him to lose his job on social media, it had nothing to do with personal insults, the two issues aren't connected. He did the same the season before, got off to a bad start and when he came under pressure for our poor performances he spoke about wanting to 'ram it back down people's throats'... On another occasion he referred to those that wanted him sacked as 'the mad few', and asked who could do a better job than him.

[Rob182]

17 hours ago, Genie said:

So people write pages and pages of personal insults about him, abuse his son, throw things at him and because he said “that should shut a few people up” (which is bang on the money) everybody wets their pants.

As I said before, this is why so many Villa fans dislike him, because he had a tiny little nibble back at them and who’d blame him.

 

Is it?

Wasn't his "that should shut people up" comment after we beat the mighty Rotherham, after a run of DDDLD against Ipswich, Brentford, Reading, Sheffield United and Blackburn. We should have been going for play-offs at minimum, and we were probably a handful of points away from the relegation zone after a really favourable list of fixtures.

[Stevo985]

33 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

Are they though?

Yes. Undeniably

33 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

I've seen you (and others) say this a few times, but I don't think it's the case. Just because some Villa fans do dislike him, and cite his obvious flaws, doesn't mean that they also don't see the positives of what he's done.

But clearly it does because you have the same people in this thread denying he's ever done anything good and explaining anything positive he ever does away with the usual excuses

34 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

Plenty of Villa fans on here (myself included), have agreed that he has his positives (defence stability/ good team mentality/ good signings like McGinn, Abraham loan, Snodgrass loan, Tuanzebe loan (even though he used Tuanzebe wrongly)), but often the reason this thread is bumped will be because of a negative that ends up being discussed. We're not going to bump a thread, saying "oh, look, Bruce making excuses again....." because of something he's said at Newcastle, followed by "but he does set up a nice defence". 

You're right, plenty of people do. Myself included. But some don't, hence why I only said "some people"

35 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

I think it's wrong to say that some Villa fans are blinded to believe anything positive about him.

I don't. I think it's quite obviously true. It's a minority, but as usual on VT, most of us sit in the 95% of people who have a reasonable view of something and the people who stand out are the minority with the extreme view.

[Rob182]

Which posters then @Stevo985?

I'm fairly confident that anyone you show me will admit that Bruce does have his positives.

[Stevo985]

Just now, Rob182 said:

Which posters then @Stevo985?

I'm fairly confident that anyone you show me will admit that Bruce does have his positives.

I'm not going to post on poster. But I'll PM you if you want names.

And if I did name them they'd backtrack and say "yeah he does have his positives", but they're the ones in here and the Bruce thread whenever he does something good, like a 1-0 victory against Chelsea, are here explaining it away by being blind luck and telling us how shit he is.

He's doing a decent job. He's a clearing in the woods and he should have done better with us, but that doesn't change how he's performing

[bannedfromHandV]

2 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

Which posters then @Stevo985?

I'm fairly confident that anyone you show me will admit that Bruce does have his positives.

Rob, you must bury your head in the sand when it suits or something.

I'd say the list is pretty obvious, spend 10 minutes reading back through the thread and it's really not difficult to see.

Edited January 20, 2020 by bannedfromHandV

[villalad21]

People call their results luck.

I call it a very good organized team who make themselves hard to beat. If you're solid at the back it always give you a good chance nicking a result.

They have a game plan, the players gives everything. When it goes on over a whole season it no longer is luck.

[Rob182]

6 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Rob, you must bury your head in the sand when it suits or something.

I'd say the list is pretty obvious, spend 10 minutes reading back through the thread and it's really not difficult to see.

 

6 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I'm not going to post on poster. But I'll PM you if you want names.

And if I did name them they'd backtrack and say "yeah he does have his positives", but they're the ones in here and the Bruce thread whenever he does something good, like a 1-0 victory against Chelsea, are here explaining it away by being blind luck and telling us how shit he is.

He's doing a decent job. He's a clearing in the woods and he should have done better with us, but that doesn't change how he's performing

But, both, as I've said, just because someone jumps into these threads to laugh at Bruce when he does something crap, or to call him lucky when something good happens, doesn't mean that those same posters cannot see any positives that Bruce has. They're just less inclined to bring them up.

It's like the small heath thread. That thread grows by pages when their financial problems arise, or points deductions, or general shit small heathery. But when they get a win, you'll get the odd one or two posts of how they fluked a win, and nothing else. I don't see other VT posters in there moaning about how some Villa fans are blinded to anything good they have going (for example, their great recent record of bringing through youth and selling them for decent money). Why? Because it's not true. Most fans will see the latter, but they're more inclined to mention the former. That's just a part of football rivalry. The same applies to Bruce. People are much more likely to slate him, or drop the odd "they've fluked another win against a Top 6 side" comment.

Villa fans have as many reasons as any other football fan to dislike Bruce, so I understand when people come in here to laugh at his failings. Why is it automatically a black & white case of "you're slagging him off, therefore you're blind to his positives" ?

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

Why is it automatically a black & white case of "you're slagging him off, therefore you're blind to his positives" ?

For me, the question is more 'you're slagging him off, but also saying you're butthurt about him clapping back - have you considered how that makes you look'?

(for the avoidance of doubt, 'you' here is a general you, not you personally)

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

 

But, both, as I've said, just because someone jumps into these threads to laugh at Bruce when he does something crap, or to call him lucky when something good happens, doesn't mean that those same posters cannot see any positives that Bruce has. They're just less inclined to bring them up.

It's like the small heath thread. That thread grows by pages when their financial problems arise, or points deductions, or general shit small heathery. But when they get a win, you'll get the odd one or two posts of how they fluked a win, and nothing else. I don't see other VT posters in there moaning about how some Villa fans are blinded to anything good they have going (for example, their great recent record of bringing through youth and selling them for decent money). Why? Because it's not true. Most fans will see the latter, but they're more inclined to mention the former. That's just a part of football rivalry. The same applies to Bruce. People are much more likely to slate him, or drop the odd "they've fluked another win against a Top 6 side" comment.

Villa fans have as many reasons as any other football fan to dislike Bruce, so I understand when people come in here to laugh at his failings. Why is it automatically a black & white case of "you're slagging him off, therefore you're blind to his positives" ?

Because they don't laugh at his failings. I'd laugh at them too. If Newcastle were bottom of the league like I thought they'd be I'd be laughing my tits off at him.

Posters come in here and the Bruce thread when something good happens for the guy and twist it into a negative. if you relied on posts on here you'd think Newcastle were having a dreadful season. Yet he's outperforming Benitez who VT hailed as some sort of genius.

[Genie]

53 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

Is it?

Wasn't his "that should shut people up" comment after we beat the mighty Rotherham, after a run of DDDLD against Ipswich, Brentford, Reading, Sheffield United and Blackburn. We should have been going for play-offs at minimum, and we were probably a handful of points away from the relegation zone after a really favourable list of fixtures.

bang on track

Quote

Steve Bruce has vowed to silence his critics after watching his troops brush aside Rotherham United at Villa Park.

Goals from Tammy Abraham and Yannick Bolasie gave the claret and blues a much-needed win that lifted them into sixth place and just five points off the top.

Bruce came under heavy criticism last time out when fans called for his head after the 1-1 draw at Blackburn

You can understand why any manager might be annoyed at people calling for his head in this scenario when as you said, playoffs or better were the target.

[bannedfromHandV]

17 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

 

But, both, as I've said, just because someone jumps into these threads to laugh at Bruce when he does something crap, or to call him lucky when something good happens, doesn't mean that those same posters cannot see any positives that Bruce has. They're just less inclined to bring them up.

It's like the small heath thread. That thread grows by pages when their financial problems arise, or points deductions, or general shit small heathery. But when they get a win, you'll get the odd one or two posts of how they fluked a win, and nothing else. I don't see other VT posters in there moaning about how some Villa fans are blinded to anything good they have going (for example, their great recent record of bringing through youth and selling them for decent money). Why? Because it's not true. Most fans will see the latter, but they're more inclined to mention the former. That's just a part of football rivalry. The same applies to Bruce. People are much more likely to slate him, or drop the odd "they've fluked another win against a Top 6 side" comment.

Villa fans have as many reasons as any other football fan to dislike Bruce, so I understand when people come in here to laugh at his failings. Why is it automatically a black & white case of "you're slagging him off, therefore you're blind to his positives" ?

No one is saying that Rob, there are a handful of previously and sporadically still vocal posters who will not accept that he achieved anything whatsoever. 
 

Its crazy to suggest otherwise with all due respect, this has been ongoing for years now.

[lapal_fan]

This thread does not read very well over the last few pages. 

 

[Rob182]

11 minutes ago, Genie said:

bang on track

You can understand why any manager might be annoyed at people calling for his head in this scenario when as you said, playoffs or better were the target.

Play-offs was the minimum, I said. With the fixtures we had at the start of that season, we should really have been around the Top 3. A sole win against Rotherham to move us upto 6th should not have 'shut people up'. Fair enough I thought that we were lower than we were. But drawing against Reading and Ipswich, who were atrocious that season, was appalling.

There was a great graphic going round after Smith had been in the job for a while, where it showed the league position of all the teams that we faced. With Bruce facing (and often failing to beat) most of the teams in the bottom half, and leaving Smith to play all the higher placed teams. That's why we should have been higher than we were after Bruce got the Rotherham win. A lot of our winnable games came at the start of the season, leaving Smith an almost impossible task.

[DCJonah]

2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

I completely agree with this, 100%, and -

*hard hat on, gets ready to annoy probably everybody*

I really feel this is a wider issue in our culture in this country. Maybe every country has something similar, but I know this country, and I see it all the time. We have a problem that some people might call hypocrisy, but I think it's a Can-Dish-It-Out-But-Can't-Take-It problem, and it's everywhere. For example:

• You see it in people who love to say that other people have said something offensive, but then when someone points out that they have said something offensive, they immediately retreat to 'it was just banter' or 'I was only joking' as an impenetrable defence;
• You see it in comedy, in the career of someone like Ricky Gervais, whose whole career is based on punching down at people less fortunate than himself, but who takes his own extremely banal, read-it-in-the-Times-editorial-section opinions about what the damn kids are up to so extraordinarily seriously;
• You see it in the tabloid media, who claim that running articles abusing Megan Markle for crossing her legs is them performing some sort of valuable constitutional scrutiny role, but who also claim that setting up an independent regulator to check they meet the most basic professional and ethical standards is literal Stalinism;
• and you absolutely see it in football fans, who happily laugh at a man having a vegetable thrown at him in public, while he attempts to do his job in front of 30,000 people braying about how much they think he's a clearing in the woods, but think that the same manager expressing that winning a match (for their football team FFS) should 'shut a few people up' is some sort of deep slight and offense which they are justified in feeling all butt hurt about. 

It's the same dynamic. We love saying on the playground 'you can dish it out but you can't take it', but we've created a whole culture of it, and once you've seen it, you can't stop seeing it everywhere. 

I do agree to some extent. 

But what we saw happens at nearly all clubs and how many managers display the arrogance Bruce did or say things like "that should shut a few up" when he finally gets a result?

Could you imagine Smith reacting in the same way?

Edited January 20, 2020 by DCJonah

[bannedfromHandV]

Bang on cue

Edited January 20, 2020 by bannedfromHandV

[DCJonah]

20 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

No one is saying that Rob, there are a handful of previously and sporadically still vocal posters who will not accept that he achieved anything whatsoever. 
 

Its crazy to suggest otherwise with all due respect, this has been ongoing for years now.

Just for clarity what did he achieve during his time with us?

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Bang on queue

Haha. 

And yet nothing I post will ever match the level of abuse and hatred you displayed when he was first linked with the job. 

Brilliant.