Drugs

[a m ole]

I think the problem with regulated, legal sale of MDMA would be the mental heath aspect of more, and more regular users with the comedown effects.

Edited June 9, 2018 by a m ole

[Dr_Pangloss]

25 minutes ago, a m ole said:

I think the problem with regulated, legal sale of MDMA would be the mental heath aspect of more, and more regular users with the comedown effects.

This is a good point and applies to any psychoactive drug. Whilst the evidence isn't exactly water tight it's pretty clear to me at least that psychoactive drugs are not for everyone and should be avoided by anyone with a predisposition toward mental health issues (i.e. family histories of manic depression, bi-polar disorder and schizophrenia). It's extremely possible that within these sorts of people psychoactive drugs can trigger a 'psychotic break' which they may never fully recover from. 

These issues (and you'd also have through cannabis in with what I said above) are glossed over by the 'regulate all drugs' crowd and pushes them into a fairly nasty libertarian-esque position that totally disregards the public health issues that would arise from legalising recreational drugs.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Dr_Pangloss

[wazzap24]

1 hour ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

This is a good point and applies to any psychoactive drug. Whilst the evidence isn't exactly water tight it's pretty clear to me at least that psychoactive drugs are not for everyone and should be avoided by anyone with a predisposition toward mental health issues (i.e. family histories of manic depression, bi-polar disorder and schizophrenia). It's extremely possible that within these sorts of people psychoactive drugs can trigger a 'psychotic break' which they may never fully recover from. 

These issues (and you'd also have through cannabis in with what I said above) are glossed over by the 'regulate all drugs' crowd and pushes them into a fairly nasty libertarian-esque position that totally disregards the public health issues that would arise from legalising recreational drugs.

You make valid point there around MH issues, but the last bit misses the mark by a mile.

It's not glossing over it. Whilst you don't have regulation, people with MH issues will continue to take these drugs. You can't measure strength/purity/dosage or anything like that and invariably that's where a lot of the issues lie. As somebody else ha said, there's is growing evidence that MDMA can actually help people with MH issues, with the right dose, of the right stuff, at the right time. Without regulation things will never improve, they are only going to get worse. 

I've said this before on here, but I'll repeat it because it's a fact. Demand for drugs has never been higher and the Supply is at an all time high too. Prohibition never has and never will work. Ever. Never Ever Ever.

Education, decriminalisation and regulation are the only solutions to improve things. 

Dont believe me? Go and do some research on all the countries that have implemented 'softer' drug laws and/or decriminalisation/legalisation. Look at the stats for opioid addiction in the US states that have legalised weed. Go look at the programmes in Sweden, Portugal, Holland etc etc. 

Come back to me when you've found a situation where it made thing worse . I'll wait. 

[chrisp65]

If we regulate and legalise booze and fags will that put an end to the dodgy stuff available in every corner of every town in britain?

[wazzap24]

11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

If we regulate and legalise booze and fags will that put an end to the dodgy stuff available in every corner of every town in britain?

We've been here before a few months ago. Nobody is saying it will. 

Counter point; 

If we made them illegal, would that help? Would you say that on average far more of the booze and fags sold in this country are the legal 'regulated' kind? Is that not a better solution that just a completely unregulated and illegal black market? 

Also, same question to you, please tell me where in the world 'relaxed' drug laws have made things worse? 

Edited June 9, 2018 by wazzap24

[chrisp65]

Just now, wazzap24 said:

We've been here before a few months ago. Nobody is saying it will. 

Counter point; 

If we made them illegal, would that help? Would you say that on average far more of the booze and fags sold in this country are the legal 'regulated' kind? Is that not a better solution that just a completely unregulated and illegal black market? 

 

We have been here before.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be legalised. I'm just countering that it isn't going to be a solution.

I've had to clean up needles and booze bottles and shit out of the office car park today. I've also had to advise parents with a toddler that there were needles in the grass in the park they were walking through.

Legal or not legal will not stop some people being at the bottom unable to help themselves or think of others. It's not going away by legalising it. The cider they had was legal. The shit (literally, shit) that they left around the place together with needles in a park will not go away by having expensive regulated psycho active substances available for £30 in Boots. They will still be taking the £10 piece of shit from the guy with a mobile phone and a bicycle. 

Legalised drugs will help the nice middle class people feel they've caused less deaths along the route from Mexico and Afghanistan. 

They're a crutch for the weak and vulnerable, the bored and the mentally ill. Perhaps we should fix people, not get the state to help distribute crutches?

[wazzap24]

16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

We have been here before.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be legalised. I'm just countering that it isn't going to be a solution.

I've had to clean up needles and booze bottles and shit out of the office car park today. I've also had to advise parents with a toddler that there were needles in the grass in the park they were walking through.

Legal or not legal will not stop some people being at the bottom unable to help themselves or think of others. It's not going away by legalising it. The cider they had was legal. The shit (literally, shit) that they left around the place together with needles in a park will not go away by having expensive regulated psycho active substances available for £30 in Boots. They will still be taking the £10 piece of shit from the guy with a mobile phone and a bicycle. 

Legalised drugs will help the nice middle class people feel they've caused less deaths along the route from Mexico and Afghanistan. 

They're a crutch for the weak and vulnerable, the bored and the mentally ill. Perhaps we should fix people, not get the state to help distribute crutches?

I think some of that is fair.

I do however believe that you are underestimating the positive impact that change could have and you haven't acknowledged my point around the places that already have implemented things and seen the benefits of doing so.

There is no magic bullet, I totally agree there, but there are ways to improve things.

If a combination of decriminalisation, regulation and legalisation cut the 'illegal trade' and associated criminality by even 40/50% would that not been a good thing? Have you seen the opioid addiction stats in America where weed has been decriminalised? is it not a good thing that it's reducing the number of people addicted to seriously bad shit? Yes they are swapping one for another, but there is no comparison harm wise. 

I know you're only countering, but you seem to take the angle that it isn't worth trying unless it solves the whole problem, which nothing will. So are you advocating for the status quo? 

Disagree on the crutch thing too. Again, yes for some, but are you including everyone who likes a drink in that too? Do you have to be one of those things to enjoy a beer, cos that's drug too.

I take drugs because I like them. I'm not vulnerable or weak, I get bored occasionally, but that's normally at work and I don't think I'm mentally ill. Stupid yes, but not ill. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by wazzap24

[chrisp65]

Perhaps I'm in the wrong mood for this today, as I say, clearing up human shit from the office car park and warning parents of toddlers about the needles in the grass hasn't lent itself to reasoned debate.

The people stealing from cars and shitting have been offered support and shelter and have repeatedly refused it. The police aren't interested in doing anything about it. Locks being vandalised and bikes stolen is apparently preferable to seeing these people on the main shopping streets.

So by the same token, the local harmless friendly funny guy was doing his walk through town today. Just doing his thing, walking through the shopping centre shouting 'happy day' wearing a christmas hat. The police and then later those pcso amateur police people all stopped him, spoke to him and tried to move him off the main thoroughfare. Basically, go do your thing somewhere else.

50 meteres up the road, four blokes out of it on whatever lay sprawled across a closed shop doorway. But critically, not on the nice street, so they can stay there and die or focus enough to order some more shit. Then pop down the park to take a shit.

So perhaps it's best I park this up until tomorrow, when today's experience of how society works has faded a little. 

[wazzap24]

@chrisp65 fair do's mate,  that all sounds pretty horrific.

[HanoiVillan]

8 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

We have been here before.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be legalised. I'm just countering that it isn't going to be a solution.

I've had to clean up needles and booze bottles and shit out of the office car park today. I've also had to advise parents with a toddler that there were needles in the grass in the park they were walking through.

Legal or not legal will not stop some people being at the bottom unable to help themselves or think of others. It's not going away by legalising it. The cider they had was legal. The shit (literally, shit) that they left around the place together with needles in a park will not go away by having expensive regulated psycho active substances available for £30 in Boots. They will still be taking the £10 piece of shit from the guy with a mobile phone and a bicycle. 

Legalised drugs will help the nice middle class people feel they've caused less deaths along the route from Mexico and Afghanistan. 

They're a crutch for the weak and vulnerable, the bored and the mentally ill. Perhaps we should fix people, not get the state to help distribute crutches?

Let's think through the logic: if 'nice middle class people' feel 'they've caused less deaths' that is probably going to be because they have caused fewer deaths - whatever other effects might occur, it seems reasonable to assume that legalised drugs are likely to reduce gangland violence along drugs trading routes. Is that not good? Do those people's lives not count at all in the consideration? Do they deserve more, perhaps, than being the butt of that jibe?

[chrisp65]

8 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Let's think through the logic: if 'nice middle class people' feel 'they've caused less deaths' that is probably going to be because they have caused fewer deaths - whatever other effects might occur, it seems reasonable to assume that legalised drugs are likely to reduce gangland violence along drugs trading routes. Is that not good? Do those people's lives not count at all in the consideration? Do they deserve more, perhaps, than being the butt of that jibe?

Well, I can see your point. The nice middle class people know their little habit potentially kills people, but they have little alternative as the government won't legitimise it. So, given the two choices of a either having people die because they like a Friday night toot. Or. not doing that but sticking with mushrooms or claret or brandy they've decided overall it's not their fault people die as they are not addicts and its the government's fault. So they keep doing it. Whilst lecturing on the sins of the single use plastic bottle.

So, I wouldn't use the word jibe, I'd use the word 'accusation'. An accusation that their guilt for their part in it is kidded away by them as not their fault. Internally they've lied their own rationale to themselves that because it's only Friday's and Glastonbury and they function well in the office and smell of deoderant at the appropriate times it's nothing to do with them. The crying mum in a shitty Mexican town, nothing to do with them. They'd happily pay a little more for a cleaner version from Ocado. So they are absolved. Well, that's alright then, crack on. People can die and live in misery quite legitimately until the government admit you're right and heroin should be available to all of us.

Let's give it another spin. I guess we're all happy with the law abiding users in the gun violence thread keeping their semi automatic rifles? If they aren't doing any harm, there's no way we'd expect them to change their behaviour because a tiny per centage of gun users cause murder of school children. That would be quite the jibe wouldn't it? To suggest they were part of the same problem in some small way?

The 'fix' here, is not for government and police to admit defeat and put drugs in licensed packets. It's a bit bigger than that. That would be a small small part of what would be needed to stop wholesale legalisation being an utter disaster for health and well being.

We can't sort out mental health now. We have no police resource to deal with low level crime, we have nowhere for the mentally ill to shelter. But somehow, legalising crack will help us all progress? Sorry, not buying that. We're a few clicks away from that being a possibility. When it is, sign me up.

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Well, I can see your point. The nice middle class people know their little habit potentially kills people, but they have little alternative as the government won't legitimise it. So, given the two choices of a either having people die because they like a Friday night toot. Or. not doing that but sticking with mushrooms or claret or brandy they've decided overall it's not their fault people die as they are not addicts and its the government's fault. So they keep doing it. Whilst lecturing on the sins of the single use plastic bottle.

So, I wouldn't use the word jibe, I'd use the word 'accusation'. An accusation that their guilt for their part in it is kidded away by them as not their fault. Internally they've lied their own rationale to themselves that because it's only Friday's and Glastonbury and they function well in the office and smell of deoderant at the appropriate times it's nothing to do with them. The crying mum in a shitty Mexican town, nothing to do with them. They'd happily pay a little more for a cleaner version from Ocado. So they are absolved. Well, that's alright then, crack on. People can die and live in misery quite legitimately until the government admit you're right and heroin should be available to all of us.

That's fine, and a fair 'accusation' in some respects. However, you certainly seem to have no alternative that will help crying mum's in shitty Mexican towns, and I think it's fair to point that out as well. 'Let's fix people' is just words, not an actual policy or plan. 

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

That's fine, and a fair 'accusation' in some respects. However, you certainly seem to have no alternative that will help crying mum's in shitty Mexican towns, and I think it's fair to point that out as well. 'Let's fix people' is just words, not an actual policy or plan. 

I wasn't proffering a world solution, I was concentrating on the issue of legalising drugs in the UK.

I really don't know enough about the problems in Honduras and Afghanistan to have a solution for them. I guess some solution would be for us not to prop up crooked states. To stop dabbling in half arsed low level war. To take away some demand for illegal drugs by not taking them. To spend more on foreign aid than pet food. 

I'd guess if Jose isn't running packages over the border for my dinner party, his mum has slightly less chance of seeing his brains on the highway?

I'm not sure I've used the phrase 'lets fix people' anywhere in recent posts? But it is a short hand for what I'm suggesting, as opposed to 'let addicts, those in pain, the empty, the abused and the mentally ill self medicate' which is the equally glib short hand of 'lets legalise drugs'. But fixing people can include working out how much it cost to 'police' the town centre yesterday. When that policing appeared to my eye, to be ignoring the spiced out zombies but harassing and moving on the unusually happy. There were cameras everywhere, in shops, in the street, in the bus lanes, in the car parks. If I had chosen to drive down the bus lane to park without paying and then take some shampoo without paying, I'd be on the prison ship to Brisbane by now.

But shoot up in the park and leave a needle in the grass? Nothing can be done apparently. Not enough resource.

It's making me sound quite conservative on drugs policy. I'm really not. I just can't see the simple 'legalise drugs' thing improving society.

[wazzap24]

Unfortunately the article is behind a paywall, but the tweet and the first paragraph or two are enough. 

The worlds largest exporter, yet we can't treat people with it here so a kid has to suffer.....

It's a load of Betty Swallocks. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by wazzap24

[wazzap24]

Oh it gets even better.......

Tory minister in charge of keeping weed illegal and not allowing medical use in UK, also gave a license to her husband, so he can grow here and export for medical use 

Maybot's husband is an investor too! 

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by wazzap24

[wazzap24]

Not someone I'd normally find myself agreeing with, but he's talking sense here....

 

[PieFacE]

Should be legal anyway really.  I don't even like the stuff but occasionally do fancy some. I see little reason for it to remain illegal when alcohol and cigarettes are legal. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by PieFacE

[Davkaus]

Canada and the US are going to make a fortune from being pioneers in legalised cannabis. Our moralising and hand-wringing is stopping us from being able to get in on a market with huge potential financially, several medical benefits, and very little actual harm. All the while having no problems with booze and fags. 

Slightly biased. My retirement plan is currently Canadian weed shares.  

Edited June 19, 2018 by Davkaus

[Genie]

Funny when you think of it, the same week the NHS gets a huge financial boost with yet to be confirmed tax increases the debate about using (and taxing) cannabis for medical use is raised by a senior politician...

Even Diane Abbot could put 2 and 2 together and get 4 with this.

The answer is staring everybody in the face.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

4 hours ago, Genie said:

Funny when you think of it, the same week the NHS gets a huge financial boost with yet to be confirmed tax increases the debate about using (and taxing) cannabis for medical use is raised by a senior politician...

Even Diane Abbot could put 2 and 2 together and get 4 with this.

The answer is staring everybody in the face.

I will put a tin hat on now.....(Just my view on it)

The myth that Canabis is a gateway drug to other harder drugs - incorrect,  alcohol is the gateway drug to all other problems. (How many people try alcohol 1st ? 99.99999%?) (See Holland for a complete populations worth of cast iron proof on this. 

It is however the biggest and greatest gateway to crime in that,  they will start kids delivering weed,  then onto the A class drugs.  

Make it legal and I suggest that 30-50 % of crime and criminals will just dissapear.  (You dont sell heroin aged 12)

Suddenly you dont need all the Police / Prisons.

Tax will go down.

Money to the NHS will go up.

The Police,  it must feel border line pathetic for them looking in ashtrays for little bits of weed in cars,  on Police interceptors they actually think they are doing well.  Waste of their time and everyone elses.

Imagine the cost per year,  laywers / police / prisons / Crime created becasue its illegal / all the other crimes that take place becasue of the total obsession with it in the UK. 

As I said , my tin hat is on.  However,  I have lived in the UK for 28 years and Holland for 18 so on this subject I think I know a tiny bit. (Every single house in Holland is allowed to grow 5 plants,  even if you have kids,  again this explains all the murders and rapes here in Amsterdam everyday,  like loads or it could be ZERO,  one of the two.

go.....

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Amsterdam_Neil_D