Current affairs Serious incident in Woolwich

[drat01]

 

There is more than 'the odd nutter' in Britain, to be perfectly honest.

 

There is a nasty sort of racism in the UK, and it isn't the Fred Perry wearing, shaved head EDL supporting kind, it is the insidious comments and anecdotes at dinner parties over a bottle of sauvingnon blanc kind.

 

There is a difference between being tolerant and being inclusive.

I think that it depends upon how far left thinking you are.

'Nasty' racism is the sort where other human beings are attacked or abused for no other reason than their colour, and there are 'nasty' racists of all colours and faiths.

I haven't attended any of the 'dinner parties' that you describe, but I do accept that there are people who grew up at a different time to me, both older and younger, and whose opinions were therefore formed under different circumstances. They have a right to their opinions in a free and democratic society.

I accept that there can be a difference between being tolerant and inclusive, but surely it s possible to be both?

 

I disagree - why does the reference to "far left" be a key point here? - surely the key issue is tolerance, unless of course you are saying that those with right wing beliefs have little / no tolerance? (I don't think you are saying that - it just comes across as that way)

[peterms]

I'll admit that I find it impossible to be objective in anything relating to the Woolwich killers. When it's a crime as brutal and chilling as this, the visions of the hacked up body of someone's husband, father, son lying on the floor while some mentally deranged sub-norm is preaching about fairy stories into someone's phone, just makes me not really bothered if they're getting a bit of roughing up in prison.

 

Sorry if that makes me a lesser human being.

 

I doubt many people are too concerned about the individual.

 

Some of us, though, are very concerned that people we entrust with power, authority, and the use of force, should use it only in the ways we have agreed through law.  The idea that they can take it on themselves to inflict punishment on people they happen to dislike or disapprove of, and that's ok, is only consistent with a police state.

 

[thetrees]

Certainly it is possible, but I think the UK isn't as inclusive as it should be, not by a long stretch, and not just with people of different faiths or nationalities.

 

I mean, how long before we have a muslim prime minister? A (openly ) gay prime minister? They wouldn't even be in the running as things currently stand imo. How much of a marker is that? Not much, I suppose. Obama is a good example - America is certainly not 'post-racial' as a result of his presidency.

 

And while I'd say the UK is tolerant, you can see in earlier posts in this thread, or after any incident of this nature, that it doesn't take much for that veil to be pulled away.

I think that the ethnicity of the assailants has zero relevance to the outrage over the butchering of Drummer Rigby, although the faith certainly does. I guess that people need contact in order to understand and appreciate both the good and the bad in people of different faiths.

On the muslim PM question, I think that the far right would have us believe that this is just around the corner. I think that it s unlikely to ever happen, and I hope that it doesn't. We are a christian society that welcomes people of other faiths, often at times of their desperate need. An integrated, open British society has worked for over half a century, with huge sacrifices and displays of tolerance by the pioneer immigrants, but the Blairite vision of a 'multi-cultural Britain' has proven to be flawed, and led us to the situation of more far right leaning groups springing up that we see now.

(Openly) gay PM? Possibly. I don't really care, so long as he/she is up to the job. For me society has eradicated the view that gay people wear a badge of dishonour, but this has unfortunately been replaced by the notion that being gay entitles the person to wear a badge of honour. The sexuality of law abiding, consenting adults is irrelevant to me.

My personal view of Obama is that by being voted in for a second term, he is the worst example of positive discrimination, because he seems pretty useless to me, although I don't profess to be a student of US politics.

[thetrees]

I think that it depends upon how far left thinking you are.

'Nasty' racism is the sort where other human beings are attacked or abused for no other reason than their colour, and there are

I disagree - why does the reference to "far left" be a key point here? - surely the key issue is tolerance, unless of course you are saying that those with right wing beliefs have little / no tolerance? (I don't think you are saying that - it just comes across as that way)

Perhaps I should have used the term 'political correctness'. For me 'nasty' racism is the violent sort, not a few insular people having a dinner party who are unlikely to be 'nasty' however ignorant their views may be.

[drat01]

 

 

I think that it depends upon how far left thinking you are.

'Nasty' racism is the sort where other human beings are attacked or abused for no other reason than their colour, and there are

I disagree - why does the reference to "far left" be a key point here? - surely the key issue is tolerance, unless of course you are saying that those with right wing beliefs have little / no tolerance? (I don't think you are saying that - it just comes across as that way)

Perhaps I should have used the term 'political correctness'. For me 'nasty' racism is the violent sort, not a few insular people having a dinner party who are unlikely to be 'nasty' however ignorant their views may be.

 

I see where both of you are coming from. As the Eyebrow says the dinner party / conversation racism can still be somewhat destructive in making nay sort of racism and intolerance as acceptable. For me it should always be challenged as it can never be part of a progressive tolerant society. The people / thugs that you see as part of groups like the EDL are typically inclined to use fists as a method of discussion prompted often though by those who prefer to light the blue touch paper and watch what happens

[The_Rev]

 

My personal view of Obama is that by being voted in for a second term, he is the worst example of positive discrimination, because he seems pretty useless to me, although I don't profess to be a student of US politics.

 

 

 

I don't think Obama will be remembered as a particularly good president either, but to be fair to the American public who re-elected him for a second term their only other choice was Mitt Romney and he is a nutcase. 

[thetrees]

My personal view of Obama is that by being voted in for a second term, he is the worst example of positive discrimination, because he seems pretty useless to me, although I don't profess to be a student of US politics.

 

 

I don't think Obama will be remembered as a particularly good president either, but to be fair to the American public who re-elected him for a second term their only other choice was Mitt Romney and he is a nutcase.

Good point!

[veloman]

I only worked (part-time) in a prison for some 6 years and that was in prison education not as an officer. It so happens that it was the same one that RJW63's relations work; but I never spoke to them; some officers were suspicious of Education staff since one teacher was caught bringing in drugs & alcohol !

In my time there I never witnessed or heard of any officer touching/detaining a prisoner without damn good reason; indeed I remember one instance where they went out of their way to save one who was attempting suicide. I saw several instances of prisoners being 'twisted up' as the prisoners used to call it and this was usually for disobeying an instruction.

I got the impression that officers erred on the side of caution rather than adopt a 'gung-ho' attitude to prisoners.

It is just my opinion, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone who has butchered another human being to death in cold blood might not be particularly compliant. 

[Awol]

I'll admit that I find it impossible to be objective in anything relating to the Woolwich killers. When it's a crime as brutal and chilling as this, the visions of the hacked up body of someone's husband, father, son lying on the floor while some mentally deranged sub-norm is preaching about fairy stories into someone's phone, just makes me not really bothered if they're getting a bit of roughing up in prison.

 

Sorry if that makes me a lesser human being.

Lesser my arse, it's entirely human to react like that.  Besides which there is still no evidence that the screws acted improperly.

[mjmooney]

Certainly it is possible, but I think the UK isn't as inclusive as it should be, not by a long stretch, and not just with people of different faiths or nationalities.

 

I mean, how long before we have a muslim prime minister? A (openly ) gay prime minister? .

 

The gay one would be fine with me. 

 

A Muslim one, I hope never. I was pissed off enough with Blair's Christian superstition, don't want any more of that. 

 

Belief in sky fairies ought to be a disqualifier from holding public office. 

[darrenm]

 

(Openly) gay PM? Possibly. I don't really care, so long as he/she is up to the job. 

 

What about being a good PM though?

[thetrees]

 

 

(Openly) gay PM? Possibly. I don't really care, so long as he/she is up to the job. 

 

What about being a good PM though?

 

Isn't that what I said?

[ROTTERDAM1982]

 I'm never quite sure what this "tolerant, inclusive" society that some people clamour for.We are far more tolerant than the US, and they have a black president.The US had a court case last week, when a black teenager killed by a Hispanic, led to a clamour of anti-racist rhetoric directed at the white minority.

 

 The US is a f@@@@@d up society that is obsessed with racism, i hope we don't get like that.

[Keyblade]

 

Certainly it is possible, but I think the UK isn't as inclusive as it should be, not by a long stretch, and not just with people of different faiths or nationalities.

 

I mean, how long before we have a muslim prime minister? A (openly ) gay prime minister? .

 

The gay one would be fine with me. 

 

A Muslim one, I hope never. I was pissed off enough with Blair's Christian superstition, don't want any more of that. 

 

Belief in sky fairies ought to be a disqualifier from holding public office. 

 

 

Seriously?

[darrenm]

 

 

 

(Openly) gay PM? Possibly. I don't really care, so long as he/she is up to the job. 

 

What about being a good PM though?

 

Isn't that what I said?

 

Yes it is. Crap joke, please ignore.

[Davkaus]

 

Certainly it is possible, but I think the UK isn't as inclusive as it should be, not by a long stretch, and not just with people of different faiths or nationalities.

 

I mean, how long before we have a muslim prime minister? A (openly ) gay prime minister? .

 

The gay one would be fine with me. 

 

A Muslim one, I hope never. I was pissed off enough with Blair's Christian superstition, don't want any more of that. 

 

Belief in sky fairies ought to be a disqualifier from holding public office. 

 

 

 

Agreed, Blair's comments about god wanting him to go to war should have been enough to have the bastard sectioned. Either under the mental health act, or a guillotine.

[Xela]

I think we, in the UK, under estimate how tolerant our country is. In my opinion it is the most tolerant and diverse country in the world. There are always going to be a few extremist nutters on all sides but on the whole, I think we can be proud of what we have achieved. 

[Chindie]

The UK could be far worse on race - far, far worse.

There is a waning but still present casual racism though, really basic 'Othering' stuff. The kind of thing you hear day in day out - that guy that cut up your grandad just isn't just an arsehole, he's a black arsehole, the family that moved in next door to our Sandra isn't just some other family they're an Asian (...or worse) family.

It's more grim with first generation immigrants - by nature they tend not to overly integrate and that gives you that 2 way stand off where neither party particularly engages the other and the process of othering is just that bit easier when you don't sit down and talk to the bloke and understand he's basically the same as you are, just dressed different.

I do think that is slowly fading away, hanging on in the older generation who can remember nothing but first generation immigrants, and occasionally coming down the line to younger people when family attitudes have sustained it. Ideally it wouldn't be prevalent at all, but it is... and I think if the choice is that or the more hardcore ingrained confrontational racism we see elsewhere, I think I'd take Britain as it is now.

[darrenm]

I think we, in the UK, under estimate how tolerant our country is. In my opinion it is the most tolerant and diverse country in the world. There are always going to be a few extremist nutters on all sides but on the whole, I think we can be proud of what we have achieved. 

I, too, think that it's great how tolerant, enlightened and cosmopolitan this country is, in general.

 

There's always that niggling doubt that it perhaps allows extremism, or violent behaviour, to go unchecked which maybe more socialist countries would pick up on earlier.

[darrenm]

The UK could be far worse on race - far, far worse.

There is a waning but still present casual racism though, really basic 'Othering' stuff. The kind of thing you hear day in day out - that guy that cut up your grandad just isn't just an arsehole, he's a black arsehole, the family that moved in next door to our Sandra isn't just some other family they're an Asian (...or worse) family.

It's more grim with first generation immigrants - by nature they tend not to overly integrate and that gives you that 2 way stand off where neither party particularly engages the other and the process of othering is just that bit easier when you don't sit down and talk to the bloke and understand he's basically the same as you are, just dressed different.

I do think that is slowly fading away, hanging on in the older generation who can remember nothing but first generation immigrants, and occasionally coming down the line to younger people when family attitudes have sustained it. Ideally it wouldn't be prevalent at all, but it is... and I think if the choice is that or the more hardcore ingrained confrontational racism we see elsewhere, I think I'd take Britain as it is now.

I agree it gets diluted by generation. I'm proud to say my kids recognise no difference in either Asian or African descendent friends. Racism is a completely alien concept to them that they don't even know exists, let alone practise. 

 

They will learn about physiological differences in races, and the role race has played in history, but they'll never take part in any discrimination due to it.

Edited July 21, 2013 by darrenm