what started the rot?

[Xann]

Nothing to do with city. It started when Lerner pulled the plug on backing mon anymore.

The obvious answer - Lerner's attention was diverted back to his business by the financial turmoil.

[turnbull]

Forgive me if someone else has mentioned this, but for me it was when Sir Graham took the England job. I often think how far he could have taken the club in his first stint, everything was there and falling into place nicely, just a shame that left, especially when it turned out such a bad move for both parties. I also think that John Gregory leaving for the Wycombe job was another "what if" moment for Villa. I always thought he was a better coach than a man manager, which he proved when he started to p!ss certain players off.

[jim]

2-2 draw with Stoke.

[maqroll]

The rot started the moment Lerner hung a framed photograph of Martin O'Neill above his bed, and then proceeded to give O'Neill the keys to the shop, and a massive line of credit.

The rot continued when O'Neill failed in his transfer/wage policy, and got worse when Lerner hung a framed photograph of Alex Ferguson above his bed, put a love letter in his safe and hired Alex McLeish, who almost relegated the club.

The rot continues now as the club policy to slash wages has crippled the team, and put them on a crash course to the 2nd division. (Sorry I don't call it the "Championship")

Lerner, Faulkner, O'Neill, Houllier, McLeish, Lambert, and all the underachieving veterans share the blame for the state of the club.

[P3te]

signing emile heskey started it

everything up to that point was excusable, but that signing absolutely **** the club up unbelievably

Edited January 13, 2013 by P3te

[MikeMcKenna]

I have a different slant on this.

In my opinion the rot started back in 2007 and had fully set in by January 2008. Things were very rosy on the playing side but off the field it wasn't so good - there was no business planning or financial controls. The then CEO was a very accomplished guy; Richard Fitzgerald. Prior to Aston Villa, FitzGerald worked for 18 years in various senior roles at IMG. They included chief operating officer and head of New Media of TWI, the world’s largest independent producer and distributor of sports TV programmes. In other words he had experience and a great track record as a senior executive. However in January 2008, after just 13 months at Villa, having been appointed on merit etc, he suddenly "resigned". I was told by someone who was definitely ITK at the time, that Fitzgerald was trying to bring in proper business planning and financial controls. However MON saw it as "interference" - Lerner agreed, Fitzgerald "resigned" with immediate effect receiving £775,000 in compensation.

FitzGerald on leaving Villa for several months worked as a consultant to the owners of Manchester City FC. In August 2008 he was appointed as CEO for Racing UK where he is still now.

Lets be clear, Lerner needed a commercial guy like Fitzgerald for business & financial planning, as he didn't (still doesn't) have this experience himself or the neccessary business skills. He should have had a joined up plan that forecast various outcomes however.....

He decided to wing it and hope that MON could achieve CL qualification. He had no Plan B if the gamble failed.

As late as April 2010 in an interview with The Independent he said:

"The way Martin [O'Neill] has developed the team, though – and the investment we've made in our training ground – should give us an honest shot at competing."

Very shortly after we were out of the FA Cup and had failed to achieve a CL place. In May Lerner appointed the 32 year old (then) Paul Faulkner, the former MBNA Relationship Manager, who described himself as a "football geek" but had no experience as a senior board level executive or track record that merited his appointment other than being someone of whom Lerner said:

""Paul was someone I could talk to about ideas and who could then go about putting those ideas into action," says Lerner. "He enjoyed the abstract: thinking about how to grow and how to develop a culture within a business."

So he made him boss of his plaything Aston Villa FC and then reputedly MON was informed that Faulkner would work with him on future player financial dealings, setting budgets and negotiating fees and salaries. And that players had to be sold but that only a limited amount of the proceeds could be used for player purchases. The rest is history; MON walked claiming constructively dismissal due to breach of contract and was paid a sizeable amount of compensation.

If you believe it was MON irresponsible spending, in reality it was all about the monetary controls or lack of them which was all down to Lerner. With hindsight he realised Fitzgerald was right but it was too late and he had blown hundreds of millions!

We are now suffering because Lerner had loads of money but not enough and BECAUSE he had absolutely NO business acumen!

Edited January 13, 2013 by MikeMcKenna

[jayEm]

2-2 draw with Stoke.

I remember that day vividly. It seems strange, but that game was probably a massive turning point for AVFC.

[HeyAnty]

MON... He walked when he was asked to earn his money.

Won't say Lerner as he could as easily sold up, but he's still here all be it not signing as many checks.

[jim]

I remember that day vividly. It seems strange, but that game was probably a massive turning point for AVFC.

Me too, I remember half time having a beer looking at the screens and Arsenal were losing. I said to my mate we are going to do it this year, went out for the second half and we all know what happened.

[parisvilla]

The moment we unveiled claret socks for our 2010/2011 strip.

[CI]

The day Barry Said he wanted out.

[AvfcRigo82]

The rot started the day Doris the tea lady was made redundant when Ellis sold the club!

.

[Woody1000]

For me, it was when we let Ethan Moore go - it showed that the club had no ambition anymore.

[TRO]

IMO, a total lack of footballing strategy started the rot.

We played well with wingers (albeit we it massively overspent on mediocrity, mainly as a result of MON unwillingness to tap into the European market). We then sold the 2 main wingers without properly replacing them under GH, but finally bought a goalscorer at an inflated price. Then we appointed McLeish, who only seemed to play with defenders in every position. Now we have PL, who doesn't use wingers.

Can you imagine someone taking over at Old Trafford next season and not playing with wingers - they would need to sell Young, Valencia, and Nani. They would need a different style of midfielders, the full backs would need to change their style of play. It would be a hell of a transition, but at least they would still have RVP, Rooney, Vidic etc. We are doing it with kids who ain't as good as everyone thought they were.

MON loved older, experienced players. GH and PL preferred younger, hungry players (Pires aside!). McLeish loved defenders, and shit ones at that.

Lerner has spent a fortune on players and wages, but we are now in a 4th consecutive season playing and recruiting in a different way - under 5 different managers. This means that continuity in our scouting system is almost non-existent, with long term player recruitment looking 6 months ahead tops.

Look at the best sides - continuity is almost always key. And not just Man Utd and Arsenal, look at Everton, Wigan (for their level) and even Swansea played the same way under Matinez, then Rodgers, and now Laudrup.

Plus, (taking the argument a little above our station) look at Barcelona - they play a set style and have done for years throughout the club, from the youngest teams up, under Rikyaard, Guardiola and now the new fella. They buy players who fit in, and they can usually just slot in seemlessly.

We buy Alan Hutton, and expect him to do a good job defensively, when the whole world knows he can't.

Personally, I think Lerner has done loads for AVFC, and spent a fortune. But he knows **** all about football. His Chief Exec is a commercial guy, and is doing a good job at it. But he knows nothing about football. We know this, they appointed McLeish (I don't like McLeish you know!).

We need someone in the Boardroom with footballing knowledge to help guide the Board. Tell them when and where to spend; mention that perhaps £2m and £50k-odd a week on Habib Beye as a 3rd choice right back is not great use of funds; question why McLeish thinks Alan Hutton is fit to wear the shirt; provid a bit on continuity on footballing matters even if the manager changes, and make sure the new manager can build upon previous work, rather than start again; and provide a link between the Board and the fans. Until we have this at the top, we ain't going anywhere nice.

Pretty well sums it up for me.....good post.

[briny_ear]

I think the posts above from Mike, about lack of financial control/business acumen, and from Pez1974 about constant switching of football strategy, nail this pretty comprehensively.

In particular the point about switching type/style of manager strike home. We have a squad littered with the unwanted remnants of previous managers' preferences - Warnock, Given, Hutton, Makoun, Bent, maybe Dunne (not sure, maybe Lambert rates him) and, when Lambert goes, there will be the Bennetts, El Ahmadis, etc., to dispense with (albeit no longer so expensive).

We might just have got away with the financial chaos if we had a coherent footballing strategy. But how anyone could hope to produce a good quality squad that would make consistent progress by switching from O'Neill to Houllier to Mcleish to Lambert is beyond understanding.

Edited January 14, 2013 by briny_ear

[MikeMcKenna]

IMO, a total lack of footballing strategy started the rot.

We played well with wingers (albeit we it massively overspent on mediocrity, mainly as a result of MON unwillingness to tap into the European market). We then sold the 2 main wingers without properly replacing them under GH, but finally bought a goalscorer at an inflated price. Then we appointed McLeish, who only seemed to play with defenders in every position. Now we have PL, who doesn't use wingers.

Can you imagine someone taking over at Old Trafford next season and not playing with wingers - they would need to sell Young, Valencia, and Nani. They would need a different style of midfielders, the full backs would need to change their style of play. It would be a hell of a transition, but at least they would still have RVP, Rooney, Vidic etc. We are doing it with kids who ain't as good as everyone thought they were.

MON loved older, experienced players. GH and PL preferred younger, hungry players (Pires aside!). McLeish loved defenders, and shit ones at that.

Lerner has spent a fortune on players and wages, but we are now in a 4th consecutive season playing and recruiting in a different way - under 5 different managers. This means that continuity in our scouting system is almost non-existent, with long term player recruitment looking 6 months ahead tops.

Look at the best sides - continuity is almost always key. And not just Man Utd and Arsenal, look at Everton, Wigan (for their level) and even Swansea played the same way under Matinez, then Rodgers, and now Laudrup.

Plus, (taking the argument a little above our station) look at Barcelona - they play a set style and have done for years throughout the club, from the youngest teams up, under Rikyaard, Guardiola and now the new fella. They buy players who fit in, and they can usually just slot in seemlessly.

We buy Alan Hutton, and expect him to do a good job defensively, when the whole world knows he can't.

Personally, I think Lerner has done loads for AVFC, and spent a fortune. But he knows **** all about football. His Chief Exec is a commercial guy, and is doing a good job at it. But he knows nothing about football. We know this, they appointed McLeish (I don't like McLeish you know!).

We need someone in the Boardroom with footballing knowledge to help guide the Board. Tell them when and where to spend; mention that perhaps £2m and £50k-odd a week on Habib Beye as a 3rd choice right back is not great use of funds; question why McLeish thinks Alan Hutton is fit to wear the shirt; provid a bit on continuity on footballing matters even if the manager changes, and make sure the new manager can build upon previous work, rather than start again; and provide a link between the Board and the fans. Until we have this at the top, we ain't going anywhere nice.

While I accept some of your points about player quality, fees & salaries paid etc I actually do not think the CEO or even owner need to know that much about football itself.

They do however need to first and foremost be very good business people, have a business plan, appropriate financial controls and be good negotiators - UNLESS the owner is a Multibillionaire Arab or Roman Abramovich where money is no object. FWIW I don't think either Lerner or Faulkner meet any of these criteria

Daniel Levy at Spurs however is a great example of what we need.

[Christ_JM]

several. Including:

• dwight yorke sale
  
• 2000 fa cup final
  
• 2007 league cup final
  

mainly for me it is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992%E2%80%9393_FA_Premier_League

1992-1993 premier league season

man utd were shit for years and we came second.

we could have pushed on but didn't, look at the difference now. it's laughable

then teams with money won the league and we could not compete because:

1. ellis chose not to spend
   
2. randy spent unwisely
   
3. both sold our great and good players often without a direct replacement
   

[Eric]

I have a different slant on this.

In my opinion the rot started back in 2007 and had fully set in by January 2008. Things were very rosy on the playing side but off the field it wasn't so good - there was no business planning or financial controls. The then CEO was a very accomplished guy; Richard Fitzgerald. Prior to Aston Villa, FitzGerald worked for 18 years in various senior roles at IMG. They included chief operating officer and head of New Media of TWI, the world’s largest independent producer and distributor of sports TV programmes. In other words he had experience and a great track record as a senior executive. However in January 2008, after just 13 months at Villa, having been appointed on merit etc, he suddenly "resigned". I was told by someone who was definitely ITK at the time, that Fitzgerald was trying to bring in proper business planning and financial controls. However MON saw it as "interference" - Lerner agreed, Fitzgerald "resigned" with immediate effect receiving £775,000 in compensation.

FitzGerald on leaving Villa for several months worked as a consultant to the owners of Manchester City FC. In August 2008 he was appointed as CEO for Racing UK where he is still now.

Lets be clear, Lerner needed a commercial guy like Fitzgerald for business & financial planning, as he didn't (still doesn't) have this experience himself or the neccessary business skills. He should have had a joined up plan that forecast various outcomes however.....

He decided to wing it and hope that MON could achieve CL qualification. He had no Plan B if the gamble failed.

As late as April 2010 in an interview with The Independent he said:

"The way Martin [O'Neill] has developed the team, though – and the investment we've made in our training ground – should give us an honest shot at competing."

Very shortly after we were out of the FA Cup and had failed to achieve a CL place. In May Lerner appointed the 32 year old (then) Paul Faulkner, the former MBNA Relationship Manager, who described himself as a "football geek" but had no experience as a senior board level executive or track record that merited his appointment other than being someone of whom Lerner said:

""Paul was someone I could talk to about ideas and who could then go about putting those ideas into action," says Lerner. "He enjoyed the abstract: thinking about how to grow and how to develop a culture within a business."

So he made him boss of his plaything Aston Villa FC and then reputedly MON was informed that Faulkner would work with him on future player financial dealings, setting budgets and negotiating fees and salaries. And that players had to be sold but that only a limited amount of the proceeds could be used for player purchases. The rest is history; MON walked claiming constructively dismissal due to breach of contract and was paid a sizeable amount of compensation.

If you believe it was MON irresponsible spending, in reality it was all about the monetary controls or lack of them which was all down to Lerner. With hindsight he realised Fitzgerald was right but it was too late and he had blown hundreds of millions!

We are now suffering because Lerner had loads of money but not enough and BECAUSE he had absolutely NO business acumen!

I agree with most of it. But I can't believe you are suggesting that MONs irresponssilbe spending wasn't his fault. As a senior manager in a business your have far more financial responsiblility than you are suggesting. If you as a manager can't handle that responsibility your are not fit to control the financial part of the job. In that case you have a director of football above you that take care of the business bit of your job, while you suggest the specific players you want to sign. I meen why do you think the best person suited for negotiating contracts is the manager? Player use experts (agents) helping them get as much money as they possibly can. I think the club should do the same thing, use negotiationg experts. And the manager should spend more time developing the team.

[NormandyVillan]

2-2 draw with Stoke.

I wouldn't say that started the rot. It was more like the day the dream ended.

That seems strange to say when you consider that despite throwing away two points at the end of that match we were still six points clear in fourth place (which was our goal). In that context it should have been just a bit of a setback. But I think everyone sensed that day that we weren't going to make it because the team just wasn't good enough for what we were hoping for. We knew we were in a false position and had no confidence in the team to hold onto it.

[Stevo985]

For me it was the gamble of making the champions league failing to pay off that started us off into this downward spiral.

It seems clear to me that Randy's plan was to back MON to the hilt, get us into the Champions League, and let the increased revenue cover the huge increase in wages that we were paying as a result.

When that didn't happen, it was obvious that we couldn't keep paying the wages we were paying at our current revenue levels and huge cuts had to be made.

Our problem is, we've gone from A. paying £60 grand a week to C. paying £15 grand a week with no "B". And now we're paying for it.

I don't think you can blame one person. Randy's to blame for gambling with the club like that. But then MON is to blame for wasting a lot of that money and not making the CL. If we HAD made that step into the champions league, I bet everyone would still be behind Randy and be saying how great it was that he backed the manager the way he did.

But he didn't, and now we're in trouble.