U.S. Politics

[HanoiVillan]

Unsurprisingly it's a complete bust, from the perspective of actual collusion. The valuable stuff that came out of it is mostly in relation to his sleazy hush money to porn stars, and a number of promising lines for future Congressional investigation.

Meanwhile, Democrats would be much better advised getting out there and spreading the word of their actual legislative agenda (for the time being, anyway). 

[peterms]

On wider US policy, the American Conservative reissues an article from 16 years ago, discussing how US policy has become dominated by neocons who promote the interests of the Israeli right wing, to the detriment of US interests.

It's too long to quote in full, but it stands up well, 16 years on.

This is one small section.

Quote

...Noting that Sharon repeatedly claims a “special closeness” to the Bushites, Kaiser writes, “For the first time a U.S. administration and a Likud government are pursuing nearly identical policies.” And a valid question is: how did this come to be, and while it is surely in Sharon’s interest, is it in America’s interest?

This is a time for truth. For America is about to make a momentous decision: whether to launch a series of wars in the Middle East that could ignite the Clash of Civilizations against which Harvard professor Samuel Huntington has warned, a war we believe would be a tragedy and a disaster for this Republic. To avert this war, to answer the neocon smears, we ask that our readers review their agenda as stated in their words. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. As Al Smith used to say, “Nothing un-American can live in the sunlight.”

We charge that a cabal of polemicists and public officials seek to ensnare our country in a series of wars that are not in America’s interests. We charge them with colluding with Israel to ignite those wars and destroy the Oslo Accords. We charge them with deliberately damaging U.S. relations with every state in the Arab world that defies Israel or supports the Palestinian people’s right to a homeland of their own. We charge that they have alienated friends and allies all over the Islamic and Western world through their arrogance, hubris, and bellicosity.

Not in our lifetimes has America been so isolated from old friends. Far worse, President Bush is being lured into a trap baited for him by these neocons that could cost him his office and cause America to forfeit years of peace won for us by the sacrifices of two generations in the Cold War.

They charge us with anti-Semitism—i.e., a hatred of Jews for their faith, heritage, or ancestry. False. The truth is, those hurling these charges harbor a “passionate attachment” to a nation not our own that causes them to subordinate the interests of their own country and to act on an assumption that, somehow, what’s good for Israel is good for America...

 

[villakram]

40 minutes ago, peterms said:

On wider US policy, the American Conservative reissues an article from 16 years ago, discussing how US policy has become dominated by neocons who promote the interests of the Israeli right wing, to the detriment of US interests.

It's too long to quote in full, but it stands up well, 16 years on.

This is one small section.

 

Project for a New American Century was not a short term thing.

[villakram]

The sound of all these trial balloons popping 

[peterms]

An article from the present day.

I confess I'm slightly surprised to be recommending pieces from something called "The American Consevative", but many of their articles reflect integrity, sound analysis, and perspective.  Which is a pompous way of saying they support my views.

Quote

David French defends one of the great crimes of the 21st century:

    Today is the 16th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq, and Twitter is alive with condemnations of the conflict — countered by precious few defenses. Yet I believed the Iraq War was just and proper in 2003, and I still believe that today.

There is good reason that the Iraq war has “precious few defenders.” The Iraq war was a great crime and a massive blunder. Not only was it illegal under international law, but it was undeniably unjust according to any fair reading of just war theory. Our government did not have just cause to invade Iraq and overthrow its government. Preventive war can never be justified, because it can never be just to strike first against another country because you fear what their government might one day do to you. That is simply aggression committed out of irrational fear. To say that you still think 16 years later that invading Iraq is “just and proper” is to admit that you don’t know what those words mean.

French talks a lot about what he believes about the Iraq war, but he doesn’t say much that is true about the war. He repeatedly calls it a just cause, but he doesn’t back that up with anything. French’s fervent belief in the rightness of the cause is striking and more than a little disturbing, but it doesn’t make the war any less wrong and appalling.

The arguments that supporters of the Iraq war use to defend it are always risible. That was true in 2002-03, and it is still true today. In addition to reciting extremely weak Bush administration rationalizations for attacking Iraq verbatim, he asserts that “his WMD program wasn’t nearly as extensive as we thought, but it is fiction to believe his weapons were entirely gone.” It is pitiful how dead-ender supporters of the war cling to what I assume are the reports of some residual stocks of old mustard gas as if they have anything to do with the fraudulent and dishonest claims of active weapons programs that the Bush administration used to sell the war. The Bush administration didn’t base its case for war on some leftover chemical weapons from the 1980s. They repeatedly and knowingly asserted falsehoods about supposedly growing unconventional threats from Iraq when there was no evidence to support any of this.

French goes on to say:

    But I truly believe the choice our nation faced was to fight Saddam then, on our terms, or later, when he had recovered more of his nation’s strength and lethality.

I don’t know what else to call this other than delusional. Iraq didn’t pose a threat to the United States in 2003, and it wasn’t ever likely to pose one later on. The U.S. didn’t have to fight Iraq when it did, and it wouldn’t have had to fight later. What French “truly believes” is neither here nor there. His beliefs are based on shoddy ideological assumptions that were discredited more than 15 years ago. The Bush administration chose to start a war against a state that could never have done anything to harm us. It was obvious to many of us that it was profoundly wrong when it happened, and now there is no doubt that it was a terrible crime that caused enormous suffering to millions of Iraqis and continues to have deleterious effects on Iraq and its region even now. The idea that a weak dictatorship on the other side of the world threatened the U.S. enough to warrant waging preventive war for regime change would have been a bad joke if that idea had not led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands, the displacement of millions, and the destabilization of the region that is still with us today. It is telling and not surprising that French has virtually nothing to say about the costs of the war borne by the people of Iraq, and even when he does mention them in passing it is only to deny our responsibility for them.

It is bad enough that people fell for the administration’s lies in 2003, but to continue defending the debacle after everything that has happened is inexcusable.

 

[A'Villan]

God has sent Trump to save Israel from Iran? Trump has given birth to a demon by f***ing the Middle East, a long-standing U.S tradition.

Perhaps Israel might consider it's laws and treatment of Muslims if saving itself is on the agenda. Iran is fighting for Palestine. Israel wants an apartheid.

Over 70% of the United Nations member states recognise Palestine. Yet the 'democratic' West ignores this call for recognition. Hegemony of plutocracy prevails.

Was discussing the conduct of Jacinta Ardern yesterday and how she has shown leadership that people respect and admire because it brings them together.

Her message to Trump when he asked her what support the USA could offer NZ after the Christchurch attack, was to send sympathy and love to Muslim communities.

I have attended a Mosque twice since the attack and the message has been loud and clear, we stand together, all faiths, all people.

The imam asked of his audience if Muslims would show other communities the kind of support that has been received since the attack. An interesting touch.

"It cannot be a case of all profit, no responsibility" - Jacinta Ardern.

[HanoiVillan]

34 minutes ago, peterms said:

An article from the present day.

I confess I'm slightly surprised to be recommending pieces from something called "The American Consevative", but many of their articles reflect integrity, sound analysis, and perspective.  Which is a pompous way of saying they support my views.

 

I've been reading Larison for about a decade now, and he's great. Changed my entire perspective, and forced me to rethink a lot of my priors. 

[peterms]

2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I've been reading Larison for about a decade now, and he's great. Changed my entire perspective, and forced me to rethink a lot of my priors. 

I've always liked those on the traditional right wing who will argue with rigour and integrity.  I find their views often challenging and refreshing (not always - sometimes they repeat tory stereotypes).  But generally, a viewpoint worth engaging with, which you can't say of most right wing oponions.

[Keyblade]

 

[maqroll]

Mueller's remit was the Russia angle, and to a lesser degree, Obstruction of Justice. That he couldn't find enough evidence to prosecute on Conspiracy isn't necessarily a shocker, but the Obstruction case seemed air **** tight and I do not know why he's not recommended prosecution. There must be something else in play.

Then there's all the SDNY stuff which is what will take Trump down. Congress needs to issue subpoenas for everyone involved, from Kushner, Don Jr., Stone, Manafort, and Mueller himself. 

The report has to be released to the public w/o redaction.

Trump has won the day, and maybe people who thought the hammer was going to drop on him were naive. Teflon Don lives to see another day.

But he'll get his comeuppance, by hook or crook.

[maqroll]

My uncle (by marriage) died last night in hospital. He was a retired US History professor. A real old school Democrat who truly believed in the American system. He said he wanted to hang on for the Mueller Report. He did. RIP Uncle John, a good guy.

Edited March 25, 2019 by maqroll

[VILLAMARV]

1 hour ago, peterms said:

oponions

It's ok. I think it was a success.

[Straggler]

6 hours ago, maqroll said:

Mueller's remit was the Russia angle, and to a lesser degree, Obstruction of Justice. That he couldn't find enough evidence to prosecute on Conspiracy isn't necessarily a shocker, but the Obstruction case seemed air **** tight and I do not know why he's not recommended prosecution. There must be something else in play.

Then there's all the SDNY stuff which is what will take Trump down. Congress needs to issue subpoenas for everyone involved, from Kushner, Don Jr., Stone, Manafort, and Mueller himself. 

The report has to be released to the public w/o redaction.

Trump has won the day, and maybe people who thought the hammer was going to drop on him were naive. Teflon Don lives to see another day.

But he'll get his comeuppance, by hook or crook.

It is the obstruction stuff that baffles me the most too. If he can't be prosecuted for what he has done in public then the standard for indictment must be ridiculous. 

 

[HanoiVillan]

This is the Senior Editor of The Economist here, getting to grips with basic reality:

Still, she got there in the end. Now do Brexit!

[blandy]

15 hours ago, peterms said:

It seems to have been built up as so much more, in what I see reported from the US media.  Specifically, acting in concert with the Russian state to undermine the democratic process.  Big claim.

Yes. From what I've seen the US media has been very partisan on each side.

In terms of what has happeneed with people pleading guilty and being charged, there's loads of facts that have come out of it

Russian agents/officials hacked the Democrat computer and then used Facebook, Twitter etc. to damage Clinton and elevate Trump, and Trump's and his team knew about it and encouraged it and called for more of it. They tried to hide the fact they had contacts with Russians and Turkish etc. officials. Flynn lied to the enquiry about it, I think. Stone knew about the Wikileaks thing and told team people it was going to happen. Trump was trying to build a hotel in Moscow and thus had an interest and contacts he lied about. A bunch of his team have gone to Jail and/or been charged with fraud, conspiracy etc. And then there's the payments to women, the concealing and lying about them...there's a whole bunch of stuff in the public domain resulting from Muellers enquiry saying he's a "naughty man done bad thing".

Just no smoking gun that he cospired with Russia to become Pres.

He's more like their semi useful semi idiot.

[Chindie]

The idea that Trump was a puppet with Putin's hand up his arse was always dumb and always going to result in disappointment. 

[peterms]

This interview from a year or two ago is worth a view.  Yes, Luke, we know that Trump is a corrupt crook, that Russia does some bad things, and Putin can be a very naughty man, but could you please point out the proof of the central claim that you are making?

 

[TRO]

14 hours ago, A'Villan said:

God has sent Trump to save Israel from Iran? Trump has given birth to a demon by f***ing the Middle East, a long-standing U.S tradition.

Perhaps Israel might consider it's laws and treatment of Muslims if saving itself is on the agenda. Iran is fighting for Palestine. Israel wants an apartheid.

Over 70% of the United Nations member states recognise Palestine. Yet the 'democratic' West ignores this call for recognition. Hegemony of plutocracy prevails.

Was discussing the conduct of Jacinta Ardern yesterday and how she has shown leadership that people respect and admire because it brings them together.

Her message to Trump when he asked her what support the USA could offer NZ after the Christchurch attack, was to send sympathy and love to Muslim communities.

I have attended a Mosque twice since the attack and the message has been loud and clear, we stand together, all faiths, all people.

The imam asked of his audience if Muslims would show other communities the kind of support that has been received since the attack. An interesting touch.

"It cannot be a case of all profit, no responsibility" - Jacinta Ardern.

Its a very tricky subject and I guess all people will form a view of what they know and that will vary from person to person, to how much that is.

It's interesting to listen to "Bridgette Gabriel" who is a christian born in Lebanon, but now lives in the U.S.....She has a very clear view on the subject, some may find interesting, even if they disagree with her.

Personally, I admire the views of Liberals, but their views and actions have consequences.... when faced with folk who do not share those same views or have an agenda to take advantage.....Its is easy for Kindness to be confused with Weakness and that is usually controlled by Intelligence and self discipline.

Trump is public enemy No1 in most folks mind and it is populist to slag him off....I do not agree will all that comes from his camp....but I recognise, some of it is necessary....I don't think he is quite the thing that many people see his as, even if many of his actions are questionable.

Growing up,I was very much a socialist,( I guess a part of me always will be) but In later life I have realised that there are people who will take advantage of kindness, caring and benevolence .... both at home in our own society and abroad and as the saying goes " you have to be cruel to be kind" at times.

It is a very tricky situation to know what hard and fast view to take.....I like to think I am flexible on it.

However, I am all for freedom of movement( with sensible control), but also respect the cultures of countries and would not like to see them change.e.g. I want Holland to be Holland and be able to recognise it for being Holland......If I went to live somewhere other that the UK it would have to be on the understanding to myself, that I was prepared to integrate and embrace their culture and Language.....Its when Immigrants fail to do this and embark on trying to challenge the indigenous values of their new country that friction manifests itself.

Culture is built up over hundreds of years and has grown incrementally.....quick overnight changes causing shock and resentment.

Tough/hard  decisions are usually the result of weak ones made earlier.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by TRO

[peterms]

12 hours ago, maqroll said:

the Obstruction case seemed air **** tight

Certainly seems that way.  Even that single incident of Trump rewriting the account of his son's meeting with a Russian lawyer in Trump Tower, never mind all the rest.

[villakram]

15 hours ago, A'Villan said:

God has sent Trump to save Israel from Iran? Trump has given birth to a demon by f***ing the Middle East, a long-standing U.S tradition.

Perhaps Israel might consider it's laws and treatment of Muslims if saving itself is on the agenda. Iran is fighting for Palestine. Israel wants an apartheid.

Over 70% of the United Nations member states recognise Palestine. Yet the 'democratic' West ignores this call for recognition. Hegemony of plutocracy prevails.

Was discussing the conduct of Jacinta Ardern yesterday and how she has shown leadership that people respect and admire because it brings them together.

Her message to Trump when he asked her what support the USA could offer NZ after the Christchurch attack, was to send sympathy and love to Muslim communities.

I have attended a Mosque twice since the attack and the message has been loud and clear, we stand together, all faiths, all people.

The imam asked of his audience if Muslims would show other communities the kind of support that has been received since the attack. An interesting touch.

"It cannot be a case of all profit, no responsibility" - Jacinta Ardern.

Any of the females present take any issue with any of the imams edicts?