U.S. Politics

[maqroll]

Great read:

 

[Keyblade]

3 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

This is true for some of those attacking her but not others, I'd imagine that comment by any democrat would have lead to a strong response. I'd say she's putting a bit of a rod in her back on certain issues, lets not forget she was recently apologising for tweets that clearly had anti-Semitic undertones.

There are absolutely no anti-Semitic undertones to what she said beyond what people are projecting onto her.

"AIPAC pays politicians to support Israel unwaveringly" is just a fact. The same way it's a fact that the Saudi lobby does the same or the NRA...both things she's spoken out against before. Would it make someone an Islamophobe for criticizing the Saudi lobby? No, that's ridiculous.

So why is it anti-Semitic when she criticizes the Israeli lobby? I can think of a couple of reasons. One, because it's such an easy get out of jail free card to escape criticism. But more pertinently, it's because she's Muslim really. Countless other elected officials have made the same salient point she did, but only she has received such a shitstorm.

I'll say it for people in the back, criticizing an apartheid regime and its influence on American politics is not anti-Semitic just because its people happen to be Jewish.

[Dr_Pangloss]

Just now, Keyblade said:

There are absolutely no anti-Semitic undertones to what she said beyond what people are projecting onto her.

"AIPAC pays politicians to support Israel unwaveringly" is just a fact. The same way it's a fact that the Saudi lobby does the same or the NRA...both things she's spoken out against before. Would it make someone an Islamophobe for criticizing the Saudi lobby? No, that's ridiculous.

So why is it anti-Semitic when she criticizes the Israeli lobby? I can think of a couple of reasons. One, because it's such an easy get out of jail free card to escape criticism. But more pertinently, it's because she's Muslim really. Countless other elected officials have made the same salient point she did, but only she has received such a shitstorm.

I'll say it for people in the back, criticizing an apartheid regime and its influence on American politics is not anti-Semitic just because its people happen to be Jewish.

So why did she apologise? If there were no undertones in her tweets why did she apologise? 

[Keyblade]

14 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

So why did she apologise? If there were no undertones in her tweets why did she apologise? 

For political purposes. She should never have apologized, and stuck by her words but she buckled under the pressure. All that did was make the wolves circling her hungrier instead of satiating them as she naively thought it would.

[Dr_Pangloss]

Just now, Keyblade said:

For political purposes. She should never have apologized, and stuck by her words but she buckled under the pressure. All that did was make the wolves circling her hungrier instead of satiating them as she naively thought it would.

I see.

[Keyblade]

Just now, Dr_Pangloss said:

I see.

They also jumped on her recently for saying that Obama had some terrible policies. It's just so ridiculous. They're going to get her killed at this rate, and the worst part is that it was spineless liberals like Chelsea **** Clinton who started it all. The Republicans are just jumping on the bandwagon, probably giddy with glee at the giftwrapped excuse to openly hate on a Muslim given to them by Democrats.

[Dr_Pangloss]

3 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

They also jumped on her recently for saying that Obama had some terrible policies. It's just so ridiculous. They're going to get her killed at this rate, and the worst part is that it was spineless liberals like Chelsea **** Clinton who started it all. The Republicans are just jumping on the bandwagon, probably giddy with glee at the giftwrapped excuse to openly hate on a Muslim given to them by Democrats.

Personally I saw some anti-Semitic undertones in the tweet she apologised for, whilst her apology may have been politically motivated I seriously doubt it would have happened at all unless she didn't deep down recognise her comments being 'problematic'.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Dr_Pangloss

[LondonLax]

Her tweet was glib, it was a mistake to not craft her words more carefully given her position as a senator and the topic she was discussing. 

[Keyblade]

I wish more politicians spoke out against money in politics. It most certainly is all about the Benjis, and it just flies against the very notion of the democracy that America ironically likes to bludgeon the rest of the world over the head with.

[peterms]

2 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Personally I saw some anti-Semitic undertones in the tweet she apologised for, whilst her apology may have been politically motivated I seriously doubt it would have happened at all unless she didn't deep down recognise her comments being 'problematic'.

I would think she was leant on pretty heavily by senior colleagues, who will be very aware that some of their funders won't like attention being drawn to the influence AIPAC has.

[peterms]

 

[peterms]

Thatcher's hero wrote a book called The Road To Serfdom.  Not sure if she ever read it.

The US, in its attitudes towards students, is actually recreating the road to serfdom, having students sign over their future labour to fund the rent of their own education.

No doubt we will shortly be told this is the future, and we must rush headlong into this new insanity.

 

[blandy]

10 hours ago, Keyblade said:

I wish more politicians spoke out against money in politics. It most certainly is all about the Benjis, and it just flies against the very notion of the democracy that America ironically likes to bludgeon the rest of the world over the head with.

It isn’t all about the benjis. Not for all of them. Sure Israel and others try and to a varying extent succeed in influencing policy via well funded lobbying and so on. But it’s absolutely not all about the money. Not all politicians believe what they believe because they are bribed or financially supported by lobbyist money, on Israel or anything else. And that’s where she was wrong. The whole notion that “Jews pay money to control the government” is anti Semitic in tone and her original tweets didn’t avoid that tone. That’s why she apologised. She was naive, that’s all.

But the way she’s been gone after, especially this latest episode is mind blowingly horrible, just totally racist, Islamophobic, nasty.

[Dr_Pangloss]

I love how her comments are being explained away by some, at least she herself took some ownership. 

[Keyblade]

9 hours ago, blandy said:

It isn’t all about the benjis. Not for all of them. Sure Israel and others try and to a varying extent succeed in influencing policy via well funded lobbying and so on. But it’s absolutely not all about the money. Not all politicians believe what they believe because they are bribed or financially supported by lobbyist money, on Israel or anything else. And that’s where she was wrong. The whole notion that “Jews pay money to control the government” is anti Semitic in tone and her original tweets didn’t avoid that tone. That’s why she apologised. She was naive, that’s all.

But the way she’s been gone after, especially this latest episode is mind blowingly horrible, just totally racist, Islamophobic, nasty.

It definitely isn't for all of them, like the Justice Democrats (that Omar is a member of) make it a point not to take any corporate PAC money. But there is a huge subset of Democrats and virtually all Republicans who do the bidding of their campaign donors, one of the largest of which being AIPAC. Now we might disagree on the extent of this or even altogether on this point...which is totally fine. There's definitely a discussion to be had there.

But to say that making this point about AIPAC as Omar did is anti-Semitic because they happen to be Jewish is just so reductive and disingenuous. She's not making the connection of Jews > money...you are (not you specifically, but the people accusing her off anti-Semitism). She criticizes money in politics in general. She's gone after the Saudi lobby, the NRA and countless others. AIPAC is just another such lobby.

The connection she's making is political entity > money > policies in their favor. Like I said you can dispute this point, but to interpret it as an attack on Jews is just false and quite frankly a smear. If she wasn't Muslim would anyone even automatically assume she was being anti-Semitic? How many white Christian elected officials have made the same criticism? Countless. Where were the colossal shitstorms?

She shouldn't have apologized. AIPAC is a very powerful lobby and they lobby on behalf of a far right apartheid regime whose leader recently promised that if reelected he would annex the West Bank. They don't get to escape criticism just because they're Jewish, sorry.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

It definitely isn't for all of them, like the Justice Democrats (that Omar is a member of) make it a point not to take any corporate PAC money. But there is a huge subset of Democrats and virtually all Republicans who do the bidding of their campaign donors, one of the largest of which being AIPAC. Now we might disagree on the extent of this or even altogether on this point...which is totally fine. There's definitely a discussion to be had there.

But to say that making this point about AIPAC as Omar did is anti-Semitic because they happen to be Jewish is just so reductive and disingenuous. She's not making the connection of Jews > money...you are (not you specifically, but the people accusing her off anti-Semitism). She criticizes money in politics in general. She's gone after the Saudi lobby, the NRA and countless others. AIPAC is just another such lobby.

The connection she's making is political entity > money > policies in their favor. Like I said you can dispute this point, but to interpret it as an attack on Jews is just false and quite frankly a smear. If she wasn't Muslim would anyone even automatically assume she was being anti-Semitic? How many white Christian elected officials have made the same criticism? Countless. Where were the colossal shitstorms?

She shouldn't have apologized. AIPAC is a very powerful lobby and they lobby on behalf of a far right apartheid regime whose leader recently promised that if reelected he would annex the West Bank. They don't get to escape criticism just because they're Jewish, sorry.

I think we broadly agree. I share your view that what AIPAC does (and other lobby campaigns do) distorts the politics. I agree with the broad point that "political entity > money > policies in their favor". She's got a point, but IMO she didn't make it very well. It was via twitter, where context is lost, too. I also agree that she gets way more flak than would a white christian person for much the same mistake. I think equating Israel gov't actions with being Jewish generally would be a mistake. Their (Israeli's) gov't is horrible, but not all Israeli's vote for it, not all Jews do, not all approve of it, many strongly disapprove of it. Israel's gov't isn't the same as Jews. Also, as we agree, not all politician's hold their views because of money and lobbying. That's where the context was poor. Personally, I think the answer to "If she wasn't Muslim would anyone even automatically assume she was being anti-Semitic?" can be answered two ways - firstly, personally speaking, yes, I'd hold the same views and say the same thing regardless of her religion or colour. Secondly, the Republicans would no doubt do their outrage for any Dem, but not for any Republican saying the same thing. Their politics is as warped or worse than ours.

I think she made a small mistake, apologised for it, and that should be the end of it. I think she's made a valid broad point about lobbying by AIPAC clumsily on twitter and has been horribly jumped on by people who don't like her, or who don't like Muslims, or who don't like a young woman in a male political world, or who see an opportunity to kick an opponent, and some who think, actually there is a bit of a dangerous road to go down regarding the mixing of Jews and controlling things via money, which would be a long-standing anti-semitic kind of trope. She kind of said she got that and was genuinely sorry. She didn't mean it that way, clearly, but still... 

While I agree that "They don't get to escape criticism just because they're Jewish, sorry." I also think they shouldn't be criticised just because they're Jewish, sorry". She didn't mean to do that, and she wasn't, but it read a bit like it to someone (generally) sensitive to a history of actual accusations made like that "The Jews, controlling our politicians with their money" kind of thing.

It's a minefield, sure. Politics is distorted by all kinds of lobby and other money, yet also many politicians hold their views despite that, or out of principle and she didn't really acknowledge that. It all got boiled down to "Benjamins" - they buy off politicians who would otherwise do differently.

But I totally get where you're coming from.

[maqroll]

Former Massachusetts GOP governor Bill Weld is entering the race to challenge Trump. Long shot at best, but he'll make the remaining few moderate Republicans wonder what could have been if Fox News hadn't taken over the party.

[Xann]

[peterms]

14 hours ago, maqroll said:

Former Massachusetts GOP governor Bill Weld

Slightly disappointed he's not from the Rust Belt.

[blandy]

2 hours ago, peterms said:

Slightly disappointed he's not from the Rust Belt.

Brazen, cast-iron, copper-bottomed punning detected.

Still, I'll solder on, tin-eared, with the thread in a state of flux.