TheStagMan Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Awol said: Well EU leaders have called for an end to referendums Seriously? Link please? Edited November 14, 2016 by TheStagMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted November 14, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 14, 2016 I'm always amused by the idea that we've struck out against the ruling elites by taking our politicians (who had become nothing more than puppets for bankers and big corporate interest) and replacing them directly with actual bankers with corporate interests. We've gone out of our way to upset the elites by getting rid of anything that might make control more difficult for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 IMO referendums should only be used for black/white simple issues. Otherwise it's way too easy to mislead. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 14, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 14, 2016 54 minutes ago, Awol said: Well EU leaders have called for an end to referendums, I'm sure they'd like elections to go the same way too. Perhaps they should ban themselves from using them as chips in games of election poker. Generally speaking I think they are pretty bad forms of governance personally. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 I'm deeply in favour of removing referendums. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 47 minutes ago, Awol said: Well EU leaders have called for an end to referendums, I'm sure they'd like elections to go the same way too. You're dead on though about the elites not seeing this coming. Do you think Wilders is in with a genuine shout in Holland? He seems to be doing pretty well in the polls (which makes it 99% certain he'd lose) and makes Trump look like a puppy in terms of rhetoric. "Well EU leaders have called for an end to referendums" this is why they are hated by normal people. Referendums are the only chance to tell them the truth and they don't like the truth it seems. No matter, people know the score now, spend time building the EU for your own benefit, we will all destroy it at election time instead. Populations now seem to have finally caught onto the fact that they need to jump when we tell them, if they don't they get voted out. Party politics is pretty much dead in the water now. As for Wilders the nonce. He wants all foreigners out which is special. It's all timing though I suppose, 1944 / 1945 if he was alive would he be telling the US / British troops to **** off back to where we came from ? No, I don't think he would. I have probably paid more tax to NL than 80% of Dutch people my age over the last 20 years but apparantley he wants me out as well. If he can get me on a plane himself then so be it :-) The bad thing is that he seems to be getting more traction as things go forward. The more South and east you go the more people like him. The Polls mean nothing anymore as I would never tell them the truth and I don't suppose many people would these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 19 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: IMO referendums should only be used for black/white simple issues. Otherwise it's way too easy to mislead. Racist :-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I'm deeply in favour of removing referendums. I'm not. I think giving a voice to the people is the basis of democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Referendums are the equivalent of "Phone a friend" where you should know the answer already. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Should never have been a referendum on the EU. 90% people had no clue what they were voting for. Just rhetoric. I agree Brumerican about Trump surrounding himself with shady characters. It's all been a bit of a joke up until now. This could have serious ramifications across the globe. It would have been nice to see Theresa May stand up for something rather then pander to Trump already. Saying this I do welcome the end of the establishment. I just don't think a billionaire who inherited his fortune is the best man to do it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 As recently as a couple of years ago, we'd have been reintroducing the death penalty if we put it to a referendum. It'd still be pretty close. The idea of giving the electorate a direct say in issues looks appealing on paper, democracy, and all that, but people need protecting from themselves (and often, other people). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted November 14, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 14, 2016 17 minutes ago, TheStagMan said: I'm not. I think giving a voice to the people is the basis of democracy. I think if you also give the people the information needed to make informed decisions they can be effective - in the case of Brexit, the absolute opposite occurred, with each side actively obscuring any sort of fact or information that might allow the voter to understand that this was a complicated, layered decision based on a multitude of factors and outcomes and instead concentrating on claiming that all Germans are fat or somesuch. Which issues should be the subject of referendums (referenda?) is odd - how Brexit ends up being a referendum and Trident doesn't for example - who makes these decisions, on what basis and under what rules and conditions should be much clearer if they're going to be used - sadly though, in an age where politics is no longer conducted on the basis of an informed electorate, that still won't matter a jot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Ok, this is all based on unnamed sources, but it's so **** funny that I had to share it. I like to imagine that his first question was "So, as president, do I get a special hat?" http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-obama-meeting-2016-11?r=US&IR=T Quote Report: Trump was unfamiliar with the scope of the president's job when meeting Obama President-elect Donald Trump celebrated his status as a Washington outsider during his campaign for the presidency. But his lack of familiarity with the US government is coming into view as he transitions to the job in the White House. During Trump's private meeting with President Barack Obama on Thursday, Trump "seemed surprised" by the scope of the president's responsibilities, according to a report from The Wall Street Journal. Trump's aides were also apparently unaware that the entire staff of the president working in the White House's West Wing would need to be replaced, according to the Journal. Obama reportedly will spend more time counseling Trump about the presidency than most presidents do with their successors. Trump and Obama were highly critical of each other during the campaign season, but appear to have struck a conciliatory tone since Trump's election, at least publicly. "I want to emphasize to you, Mr. President-elect, that we now are going to want to do everything we can to help you succeed, because if you succeed then the country succeeds," Obama said to Trump in front of reporters on Thursday. Trump called Obama "a very good man" during the session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 (edited) 25 minutes ago, TheStagMan said: I'm not. I think giving a voice to the people is the basis of democracy. a lovely ideal, and I agree on the absolute condition that every single person voting in the referendum can prove they've read and understood the consequences of their actions. That they know at least how far their actual grievances are linked to the EU or not for example. A fact checking test before voting where they have to recognize the money spent and received, and what the limits of this being replaced by a change of this nature, where sovereignty actually lies on certain issues, how the current parliament already has various powers, and what the benefits have been and would be in future scenario's for both sides. Sounds like a great idea. As long as they're not voting based on lies, ignorance or prejudice, that's fine. I have plenty of conversations with Brexiters for example who have outlined their reasons fairly enough for wanting to leave, so don't misrepresent this post as bitterness, ( though I was very disappointed and depressed ), I just think a very high bar of understanding should be instituted before such votes. I do think that your everyman who's busy working can't possibly have time to analyse all the consequences of the decisions, including myself, I don't think I should have been allowed to vote on a constitutionally dramatic change, based on the limited information I've read in papers or seen in youtube videos. Have 'em on the small shit, that doesn't have fundamental consequences for the working, social, and legal lives of its citizens, sure. But unless people fully understand the impact, it's insane. The democratic votes of Ancient Athens only worked because it was a much smaller city state. It's an insane way to govern a population of different customs, cultures and vast numbers. Edited November 14, 2016 by Rodders 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 We're deep into the information age, with information on anything you can imagine quite literally being at your fingertips at all times, and yet we're as uninformed as ever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 If there is a single grain of truth in Obama spending more time than he's obliged to helping Trump get to grips with what's expected of him, the man has gone way up in my esteem. He's being replaced by a jackass that denied Obama was even eligible to be president, and it seems that he's willing to put the country first instead of walking out of there laughing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 10 minutes ago, Davkaus said: Ok, this is all based on unnamed sources, but it's so **** funny that I had to share it. I like to imagine that his first question was "So, as president, do I get a special hat?" http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-obama-meeting-2016-11?r=US&IR=T I think that is a very obvious thing, he has absolutely no experience in politics just like Obama probably would running one of Trumps many businesses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Still my favourite moment from the shampaign. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 http://www.shortlist.com/news/dave-chappelle-donald-trump-SNL-monologue Brilliant. Sorry I can't embed the video? Anyone care to help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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