U.S. Politics

[LondonLax]

18 hours ago, Vancvillan said:

Obviously fake. Show me a person who starts a puzzle with anything other than the corners and I'll show you a serial killer.

It was obviously not real but it’s still a funny gag. 

[sidcow]

3 hours ago, LondonLax said:

It was obviously not real but it’s still a funny gag. 

In other news an Englishman, Irishman and Scottsman didn't walk into a bar. 

[villakram]

On 09/12/2022 at 21:35, TheAuthority said:

OK I'm probably going to regret this......

It's 2026, the US has imploded into, civil war or economic collapse or something. Anyway, they no longer have a functional government and the US armed services are in disarray.

Who do you @villakram , want as the world's leading authority on security? China? Russia? Iran? Just complete anarchy?

I'm really interested as to how you see a world Utopia would be set up without the evil US (that is of course assuming that you've grown up past your late teens having read 2 or 3 Chomsky books and thinking that you now understand how the world works.)

I really would have thought if the last 9 months has taught us anything, it's that a large part of the world is quite happy that the US can throw military aid into other parts of the world to stop the spread of authoritarianism.

Again - disclaimer -  having been burnt by trying to engage you before, I will probably regret asking this, but as ever the optimist, I hope to have an engaging discussion.

That's an interesting premise for a discussion. Would us mid-westerners be the rebels or the bad guys. What sort of folks would occupy the mountain fortress of Denver? Would D.C. fall into the sea? 

Where would treacherous furryners be interned? Would Canada invade?

There's the kernel of an Amazon Prime series there, go for it. 

[sidcow]

7 minutes ago, villakram said:

That's an interesting premise for a discussion. Would us mid-westerners be the rebels or the bad guys. What sort of folks would occupy the mountain fortress of Denver? Would D.C. fall into the sea? 

Where would treacherous furryners be interned? Would Canada invade?

There's the kernel of an Amazon Prime series there, go for it. 

Bit of a non answer there @villakram

[TheAuthority]

7 hours ago, villakram said:

That's an interesting premise for a discussion. Would us mid-westerners be the rebels or the bad guys. What sort of folks would occupy the mountain fortress of Denver? Would D.C. fall into the sea? 

Where would treacherous furryners be interned? Would Canada invade?

There's the kernel of an Amazon Prime series there, go for it. 

Empires fall - whatever. My question was and still is, who should be the world's authority on security? Should we all be taking our lead from China? Iran? Russia?

The subtext to my point is, obviously, that American Imperialism (which you appear to be against) brings stability. So , if it is no longer there, who do you @villakram want to be the leading government with the most military power? (As you are so disgusted by it being America)

[OutByEaster?]

I'd guess it would be a combination of European militaries and Japan/Australia/Korea although I suppose without a prevalent and dominant military (or economy as one thing couldn't collapse without the other) there's a chance that we might see a situation where there's a more collaborative approach to global politics with every nation acting as a check and balance to others (or more likely we'd form some blocs and dig trenches).

That said, if some semblance of the US military survived, anyone with control of maybe 20% of it would still be the predominant power on the globe - so I think probably the right answer would be "Whoever Blackstone decide".

 

[sidcow]

I think the USA is already sowing the seeds of it's own downfall.

Inward naval gazing and protectionism.  Constant infighting.  A lot of what is going on feels like fiddling whilst Rome burns.  Some of these "patriots" better wake up because they are helping erode the standing of The USA in the world a tinsy bit at a time.

I think they've realised that they need to out manufacture China though and start building more of the high tech stuff themselves rather than sub it all out to China.

[HKP90]

29 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I think the USA is already sowing the seeds of it's own downfall.

Inward naval gazing and protectionism.  Constant infighting.  A lot of what is going on feels like fiddling whilst Rome burns.  Some of these "patriots" better wake up because they are helping erode the standing of The USA in the world a tinsy bit at a time.

I think they've realised that they need to out manufacture China though and start building more of the high tech stuff themselves rather than sub it all out to China.

It certainly felt that way in 2016, but I think they are at a crossroads now, depending on the next, and subsequent election cycles. They can either marry anti-intellectualism by electing some right wing headcase, or admit to f**king anti-intellectualism in a dark alley in 2016 (Trump) before never calling it again. 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by HKP90
typo

[OutByEaster?]

6 hours ago, sidcow said:

I think the USA is already sowing the seeds of it's own downfall.

Inward naval gazing and protectionism.  Constant infighting.  A lot of what is going on feels like fiddling whilst Rome burns...

I'd say it's fiddling while Rome prospers.

If you can persuade the populus to argue about things that don't interfere with your productivity; like race, gender, abortion, immigration or any one of a host of social issues, you can contain all of their energy and activism while you plunder the society they live in. US democracy is kept deliberately chaotic by its ruling donor class; let them fight about anything except regulating banks, controlling corporate power or affecting profit and the 'nation' thrives.

 

[HKP90]

23 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I'd say it's fiddling while Rome prospers.

If you can persuade the populus to argue about things that don't interfere with your productivity; like race, gender, abortion, immigration or any one of a host of social issues, you can contain all of their energy and activism while you plunder the society they live in. US democracy is kept deliberately chaotic by its ruling donor class; let them fight about anything except regulating banks, controlling corporate power or affecting profit and the 'nation' thrives.

 

And how many of it's allies and trading partners will continue to invest in it if it turns into a dystopia of civil war and human rights violations.

How many investors have pulled out of Russia for those reasons. 

[OutByEaster?]

35 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

And how many of it's allies and trading partners will continue to invest in it if it turns into a dystopia of civil war and human rights violations.

Do you really see that happening?

America is a pot kept bubbling at just the right level - mistakes may happen, but I don't see it boiling over.

[sidcow]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

I'd say it's fiddling while Rome prospers.

If you can persuade the populus to argue about things that don't interfere with your productivity; like race, gender, abortion, immigration or any one of a host of social issues, you can contain all of their energy and activism while you plunder the society they live in. US democracy is kept deliberately chaotic by its ruling donor class; let them fight about anything except regulating banks, controlling corporate power or affecting profit and the 'nation' thrives.

 

But the inward looking protectionism means they eventually become uncompetitive globally.

You can't keep ensuring your powering by coal to keep the miners in jobs and use traditional steel making because you want to keep the rust belt happy whilst the rest of the world moves to modern cheap power and cheap clean burning steel production.

Suddenly you are old fashioned and expensive.

That's just 1 microcosm of what's happening very slowly but surely.  It will catch up with them.

Their car industry is slowly getting less and less important globally.    That's going to get obliterated by Chine when a load of their manufacturers hit the world with good quality super cheap electric cars.

Yes, their home market is enormous but ultimately others take over the global markets and USA slowly fades.

[OutByEaster?]

Blackrock owns 3% of BMW, 3% of Toyota, 5.5% of Arcelor Mittal, they profit from America's competitors and that profit is America. It's not the democratic structures or the societies of people that dominate how America is structured, it's the banks, it's the Vanguard Group, Blackrock, Blackstone, JPMorgan Chase - that's America. That's the people who buy the shares in the companies that the politicians they bought invest in. America will be fine - there might be a shitstorm of fire and bullets in its cities, but that's not what counts - we're in a post real-economy world. It doesn't matter where the steel comes from, only that America's banks profit.

 

 

[villakram]

13 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Empires fall - whatever. My question was and still is, who should be the world's authority on security? Should we all be taking our lead from China? Iran? Russia?

The subtext to my point is, obviously, that American Imperialism (which you appear to be against) brings stability. So , if it is no longer there, who do you @villakram want to be the leading government with the most military power? (As you are so disgusted by it being America)

Why does the world/humanity require an authority on security? What principled ruleset will be enforced and not corrupted by those humans running it, e.g., see the behavior of these freedom and democracy loving societies/countries post WWII... stability for some.

You are for American imperialism as you see it as a global and local good. There are nice tales about morals and ethics that make you feel good about yourself and your position in local society and the broader world. That is all well and good, but others exist in the world and they have experiences, cultures and opinions too. Which is superior, who decides and by what ruleset.

I don't think that American or any other grouping having supremacy is a good thing. Of course, this is the real problem right now, the old post WWII order is slowly decaying as the world reverts to some form of mean. The winners of said war are as happy about this as the others were about being told how to live and behave. Such as it always was in a way.

Edited December 13, 2022 by villakram

[sidcow]

3 hours ago, villakram said:

Why does the world/humanity require an authority on security? What principled ruleset will be enforced and not corrupted by those humans running it, e.g., see the behavior of these freedom and democracy loving societies/countries post WWII... stability for some.

You are for American imperialism as you see it as a global and local good. There are nice tales about morals and ethics that make you feel good about yourself and your position in local society and the broader world. That is all well and good, but others exist in the world and they have experiences, cultures and opinions too. Which is superior, who decides and by what ruleset.

I don't think that American or any other grouping having supremacy is a good thing. Of course, this is the real problem right now, the old post WWII order is slowly decaying as the world reverts to some form of mean. The winners of said war are as happy about this as the others were about being told how to live and behave. Such as it always was in a way.

Nothing of the sort. 

I'm mainly just glad that their aren't Russian or Chinese troops marching down my road rounding me, my family and my neighbours up for relocation to our new dwellings of an uncertain type in an uncertain location to await our fate. 

[blandy]

18 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

The subtext to my point is, obviously, that American Imperialism (which you appear to be against) brings stability.

Does it ****!

a large chunk of the instability in the world is due to or a partial consequence of US imperialism.

[villakram]

3 hours ago, sidcow said:

Nothing of the sort. 

I'm mainly just glad that their aren't Russian or Chinese troops marching down my road rounding me, my family and my neighbours up for relocation to our new dwellings of an uncertain type in an uncertain location to await our fate. 

Nice strawman you have got there.

[sidcow]

5 hours ago, villakram said:

Nice strawman you have got there.

What does that even mean? It's like talking to a riddler. 

[sidcow]

7 hours ago, blandy said:

Does it ****!

a large chunk of the instability in the world is due to or a partial consequence of US imperialism.

So if The USA instead sat back the World would just be at peace? Everyone rubbing along just fine? 

American foreign policy does leave a lot to be desired but I'm not at all convinced that we'd have more peace in a world left to its own devices. 

I would say reliance on fossil fuels is a big driver of world instability coupled with religion. 

[Vancvillan]

On 12/12/2022 at 13:17, villakram said:

Where would treacherous furryners be interned? Would Canada invade?

There's the kernel of an Amazon Prime series there, go for it. 

Mate we've got 76 active fighter jets sprawled across the second largest country on earth. We couldn't invade Seattle.