Catalonia Independence

[snowychap]

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Yeah absolutely, but apparently for what I saw on the news the Belgians are concerned he won't get a fair trial therefore may not release him.

From what I've read, I'm not sure that's a choice the Belgians are able to make.

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, snowychap said:

From what I've read, I'm not sure that's a choice the Belgians are able to make.

He would have been better off going to a country outside the eu perhaps south america

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

He would have been better off going to a country outside the eu perhaps south america

 

[bickster]

Only one winner in all of this - Putin again

[Demitri_C]

22 minutes ago, bickster said:

Only one winner in all of this - Putin again

Excuse my ignorance but why?

[tonyh29]

45 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

He would have been better off going to a country outside the eu perhaps south america

Or England

 

[Chindie]

15 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Excuse my ignorance but why?

Russian strategy seems currently to be to sow dissent, instability and push division in the West. They had a hand in Brexit, which they will be delighted with, they had a hand in Trump's rise (how much is yet to be seen but there's loads of evidence of their messing with social media to split people for example)... Whether they actually had much to do with the Catalan independence movement I've no idea but they'll be happy to see another Western nation having internal instability.

They want to shake up the West to weaken it and push it in ways that help their cause. They'll cheer anything that causes division in Europe and America.

[bickster]

20 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Excuse my ignorance but why?

Russia have been interfering in elections and funding any independence movement you car to mention, including tha Catalan one, his aim is to destabilise the west as much as he can because the more fractured and discordant it becomes the better for him

 

[chrisp65]

I'd be more inclined to believe he's on side with the Madrid dictatorship refusing people access to basic democracy, then arresting those that refuse to be beaten down.

 

 

[bickster]

8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I'd be more inclined to believe he's on side with the Madrid dictatorship refusing people access to basic democracy, then arresting those that refuse to be beaten down.

 

 

He’s not waging an ideological war, he’s trying to cause fractures by any means necessary. There was talk he even funded some BLM adverts in the US. He’s not bothered about sides

[Chindie]

40 minutes ago, bickster said:

He’s not waging an ideological war, he’s trying to cause fractures by any means necessary. There was talk he even funded some BLM adverts in the US. He’s not bothered about sides

Russian money funded ads in Facebook for a huge variety of things. A lot to do with traditional US patriot crap (you'll take my guns from my cold dead hands, no Muslims! stuff) but also a few BLM, sexual equality, etc etc targeted ads as well.

As you say, it's just fostering division. Anything will do.

[HanoiVillan]

I think in a couple of years we might look back on this conversation as Peak Putin. 

[chrisp65]

41 minutes ago, bickster said:

He’s not waging an ideological war, he’s trying to cause fractures by any means necessary. There was talk he even funded some BLM adverts in the US. He’s not bothered about sides

So it's the Spanish government that have fallen for some Russian plot?

Let's not allow a democratic vote, let's lock up those that expect democracy, let's send in Madrid police to smash the faces of middle aged Catalan women that think they can vote.

So easily avoided. Regardless of how spooked we might be by shadows.

[LondonLax]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

So it's the Spanish government that have fallen for some Russian plot?

Let's not allow a democratic vote, let's lock up those that expect democracy, let's send in Madrid police to smash the faces of middle aged Catalan women that think they can vote.

So easily avoided. Regardless of how spooked we might be by shadows.

No I think the Spanish government have acted like mugs all on their own but the push of independence seems to have been given a helping hand as well.

It used to just be a fringe issue by a small group of Catalan nationalists, opinion polls used to say most Catalans wanted to stay in the EU and Spain. However there has been a swing and it's close to 50 - 50 now, the Spanish government's attitude and subsequent actions will have been party responsible but there is plenty of talk about a funding boost coming out of Russia as well. 

[maqroll]

9 hours ago, bickster said:

Russia have been interfering in elections and funding any independence movement you car to mention, including tha Catalan one, his aim is to destabilise the west as much as he can because the more fractured and discordant it becomes the better for him

 

I've not heard about the Russia-Catalan connection, do you have a link?

[bickster]

15 minutes ago, maqroll said:

I've not heard about the Russia-Catalan connection, do you have a link?

Quote

Russian propagandists scored a victory in Spain this weekend after “boldly injecting fake news and disinformation” into the debate over Catalonian independence and seemingly influencing the election results, according to U.S. information warfare experts.

The divisive nature of Sunday’s chaotic poll, in which voters backed the Catalonia regional government’s disputed referendum to declare independence from Spain, featured Russian state-backed news outlets and social network robotic accounts leveraging the mayhem to push the Kremlin’s larger anti-Western and anti-democracy themes.

“What is so troubling is that the Russians used the same playbook and nobody seems to care,” U.S. information warfare expert Molly K. McKew told The Washington Times. “It’s the constant drumbeat; minorities are disadvantaged, the West has nothing to offer, democracy doesn’t work.”

On Capitol Hill, multiple congressional probes currently investigating the extent of Russian meddling in the 2016 U.S. presidential election have zeroed in on a similar pattern of Kremlin-backed propaganda seemingly amplifying divisive social issues across Facebook and Twitter last year.

Experts say the Kremlin has perfected not promoting a single candidate but instead finding divisive social issues including race, gun control, religion or gay rights to amplify. Eastern European, or Russian, troll farms and robotic accounts then use algorithms to make “emotional hot-button topics” trend across a country’s Internet space.

 

Washington Post

That's just one of many articles on the subject (more on link than just text above)

[maqroll]

Quote

“It’s the constant drumbeat; minorities are disadvantaged, the West has nothing to offer, democracy doesn’t work.”

It's not entirely untrue

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, maqroll said:

It's not entirely untrue

beat me to it

there's an easy way to stop the russians pointing out your a nasty fascist dictatorsip that smashes faces and stamps out minority culture

I guess the best way to stop this insidious russian threat is to ban a legitimate request for a referendum, then send in fascist thugs to smash up the unofficial referendum, then bus in fascist thugs from Madrid to 'protest' at the Catalan nationalism, then arrest the peaceful politicians and strip search them and throw them in jail for sedition.

Yep, that'll put the russians in their place.

I guess some of those Madrid police stamping on pensioners and jumping down stairs to land two footed on voters, they were probs russian spies.

 

 

And I don't trust that Nicola Sturgeon woman either. That's a russian fish if ever there was one.

 

[bickster]

21 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

So it's the Spanish government that have fallen for some Russian plot?

Let's not allow a democratic vote, let's lock up those that expect democracy, let's send in Madrid police to smash the faces of middle aged Catalan women that think they can vote.

So easily avoided. Regardless of how spooked we might be by shadows.

If anything it's the Catalans that have fallen for something, though the Spanish Government have made just about every wrong move in the book, all on their ownsome

 

[Genie]

Putin clearly behind Villa’s relegation, the breaking up of the traditional elite clubs in England is only good news for him.