Catalonia Independence

[Zatman]

6 hours ago, Genie said:

Putin clearly behind Villa’s relegation, the breaking up of the traditional elite clubs in England is only good news for him.

He would be a hero of mine of mine if he broke up the Sky monopoly

[chrisp65]

three quarters of a million people take to the streets of Barcelona to call for Catalan political prisoners to be released

 

EU couldn't give a shit.

 

 

[Demitri_C]

7 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

three quarters of a million people take to the streets of Barcelona to call for Catalan political prisoners to be released

 

EU couldn't give a shit.

 

 

Of course. They will say it's a domestic Spanish issue. Not really a surprise.

[chrisp65]

29 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Of course. They will say it's a domestic Spanish issue. Not really a surprise.

Right now, it's probably the issue that's tipping me in to the Leave EU camp.

Some of the disgusting tweets from euro officials like Guy Verhofstadt make you realise that the top of Europe just wants one single entity and little nuisance groups wanting 'freedom' or moaning for 'democracy' just get in the way of the big plan. 

We're seeing the true colours of the EU here, and it ain't pretty. It's a super state at any cost, even if that cost includes shipping in tattooed fascists to smash up mums wanting a vote and the erasing of a whole language and culture because given a little bit of 'freedom' they abused what they'd been handed down by their superiors and asked for more. 

 

[Meath_Villan]

The EU is just a German invasion without the war 

[bickster]

Devils Advocate time here:

If Nicola Sturgeon was locked up and arrested for organising something she had no authority to do and that event lead to civil disobedience on the streets, which in turn was determined to be as a direct result of Sturgeon's actions... Would we expect the EU to intervene?

I wouldn't, it's not an EU issue. It's a human rights issue and that falls to the European Court of Human Rights. Despite what all the Brexiteers would have you believe, the ECHR has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. That's a Council of Europe thing, not an EU thing

[Chindie]

It's not the EU's issue. It's a Spanish issue.

Where the EU to intervene, they'd be damned by those desperate to prove the EU is after superstate status. If it doesn't it's somehow damned not doing anything.

I can't criticise the EU's stance here. They've basically done the only thing they can do - nothing.

[Dr_Pangloss]

36 minutes ago, Meath_Villan said:

The EU is just a German invasion without the war 

The Greeks would very much take this view.

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

European leaders couldn’t wait to pipe up when things kicked off in Ukraine and it suited their own agenda. I don’t remember one single person standing up and saying ‘It’s an internal Ukrainian affair’!

If the matters at hand weren’t quite so serious the hypocrisy would be laughable! 

Visca Catalunya!!! 

[bickster]

56 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

European leaders couldn’t wait to pipe up when things kicked off in Ukraine and it suited their own agenda. I don’t remember one single person standing up and saying ‘It’s an internal Ukrainian affair’!

If the matters at hand weren’t quite so serious the hypocrisy would be laughable! 

Visca Catalunya!!! 

The only thing that connects Catalonia situation with the Ukraine situation is Russian interference

Now that is most definitely something EU leaders should be shouting from the rooftops but aren’t.

Aside from that there’s little to connect them. One was an invasion by a foreign power into another sovereign country, the other was an ill advised unofficial independence referendum. One is inside the EU, the other isn’t and that does make a huge difference

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

31 minutes ago, bickster said:

The only thing that connects Catalonia situation with the Ukraine situation is Russian interference

Now that is most definitely something EU leaders should be shouting from the rooftops but aren’t.

Aside from that there’s little to connect them. One was an invasion by a foreign power into another sovereign country, the other was an ill advised unofficial independence referendum. One is inside the EU, the other isn’t and that does make a huge difference

I was referring to the initial response to the Kiev protests as opposed to the Crimean situation. People seem to have forgotten the run up to the ‘invasion by a foreign power’....an EU/US led effort to overthrow an elected government that was against an EU expansionist agenda. 

I find the proposition that EU leaders should be commenting on the behaviour of foreign governments whilst simultaneously maintaining a wall of silence on the incarceration of political ‘dissidents’ within its own ranks, frankly bizarre. 

 

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

Devils Advocate time here:

If Nicola Sturgeon was locked up and arrested for organising something she had no authority to do and that event lead to civil disobedience on the streets, which in turn was determined to be as a direct result of Sturgeon's actions... Would we expect the EU to intervene?

I wouldn't, it's not an EU issue. It's a human rights issue and that falls to the European Court of Human Rights. Despite what all the Brexiteers would have you believe, the ECHR has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. That's a Council of Europe thing, not an EU thing

I think that if you start at the point of an 'illegal' referendum, then perhaps you miss a lot of the point.

What if, over time, it was illegal for Scots to hold images of some paintings because they were seen as 'anti Spanish', if it was a criminal offence to have a postcard with a picture of Robert the Bruce on it? What if Westminster banned the use of culturally Scottish names that parents could christen their kids? Then, slowly slowly over time rights are won whereby Scotland gets greater autonomy. A slow non-violent process.

Say, perhaps, Scotland achieved an autonomous government in 1931, but then England invaded in 1939 and executed all the Scottish politicians.

Say, perhaps, in 2010 the English parliament repealed existing laws that gave 'scottish' as an official language of state, making english the only official language of Scotland.

So in 2014 the Scots ask for a referendum and they are told no. So they organise their own, and it comes out 85% in favour of independence. But they only use that as a bargaining chip.

Then in 2016 they ask again for a referendum and again they are told no. So in 2017 they again organise their own. Again, despite Spanish violence, they vote massively in favour of independence. But say, what they actually want is an officially sanctioned referndum. But they are told no and their politicians are rounded up, stripped, and put in prison for sedition.

I think, by that point, I'd be siding with the Scots.

This russia stuff is bollocks. Unless it's russians that tried to stamp out the language, stamp out the names and literally stamp on the heads.

Let them vote. It's basic western democracy. Spanish government is fascist scum backed up by the EU.

bloody russians

Edited November 12, 2017 by chrisp65

[LondonLax]

Surely the EU has to side with the elected Spanish government here, even if we disagree with Rajoy and his actions? They would be accused of being anti democracy if they overruled the elected government. 

Rajoy will not be around forever, the next Spanish government may take a different line on independence referendum. 

[snowychap]

6 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Isn't that one of the 'fake' photos? In that it's from 2013, isn't it?

Edited November 12, 2017 by snowychap

[chrisp65]

Just now, snowychap said:

Isn't that one of the 'fake' photos? It's from 2013, isn't it?

I wasn't claiming a set date for it, just the attitude of the Spanish state, I can swap it out for a thousand others.

Same with footage of the old lady being beaten to the ground, apparently that was 'fake' as it had actually happened at the previous referendum.

Perhaps the footage of a police officer jumping downstairs to land two footed on someone was also from previous encounters, I don't know.

If anything, it just reinforces the point, this is not something that started in October 2017 by russian twitter bots.

I think everyone knows the story of Jordi Cruyf? Johan wanted to call his son Jordi, after the patron saint of Catalonia. But this was banned in Spain at the time and couldn't be registered. So the family flew to The Netherlands, registered the child there, as Jordi, and flew back.

And there was someone named Jordi in Barcelona, subverting the banning law imposed by the fascist spanish state. Making Cruyf fairly popular.

This is not a new thing.

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, chrisp65 said:

I wasn't claiming a set date for it, just the attitude of the Spanish state, I can swap it out for a thousand others.

Though you're claiming a definite and particular narrative for that photo, i.e. Spanish state v Catalonia.

That picture was apparently from a firefighters' protest against austerity cuts in 2013 and the argument that I've heard made (I'm no expert in the various different police forces of continental countries) is that the riot police in question were the Catalonian police.

 

[chrisp65]

if it's blocking the bigger picture, swap it out for another

    

 

 

 

[snowychap]

28 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

if it's blocking the bigger picture

Not blocking any picture, just a request for providing supporting evidence that is what it claims to be.

[chrisp65]

18 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Not blocking any picture, just a request for providing supporting evidence that is what it claims to be.

I'm in no way any sort of expert on this stuff, it's all new to me, and fascinating. That one photo from all I've posted was a wrong un. But so easily fitted the whole narrative.

Here's another:

it's a rally in Catalonia in December 1917 calling for the Spanish government to release all Catalan political prisoners of all hues

Woodrow Wilson on behalf of the allies had promised a free future to the small european states after WW I. Spain was neutral, but 40,000 Catalans fought with the Allies. Their hope of independence never materialised.

For the real deep diving anorak on this, there's the Treaty of Utrecht and Catalonia being left to the invading spanish. 

Where I'm coming from with this, is basically quite a simple point. This didn't start with a russian twitter campaign in 2017 and repeating that at every opportunity really doesn't do justice to the hundreds of thousands of real people in the streets simply asking for a democratic process in europe. The way it is heading is the perpetual suppression of democracy for this group of people. The irony being, a state sanctioned referendum at any point in the last 7 years would probably have returned a majority for no. 

 

 

 

[snowychap]

24 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

This didn't start with a russian twitter campaign in 2017

I've not seen anyone (seriously) make that point.

Edited November 12, 2017 by snowychap