DCJonah Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Vertout may be better at these things than Westwood but until he does better than him in the PL we don't know. Did you use this logic to tell people, who were thrilled with the signing of amavi, that we don't know if he's better than Richardson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I don't think that's based on people's opinions on amavi. More that anyone would be better than Richardson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I don't think that's based on people's opinions on amavi. More that anyone would be better than Richardson. True, but using the logic Trent's said we didn't know until we saw it. But I doubt anyone was saying that when we signed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 It is absolutely relevant because it is an example of why In saying stats between different leagues are a flawed way of judging if a player is better or seems better at something than another especially when you've not seen the player. You don't want me to keep bringing it up because you know I'm right and you haven't got an answer to it. I know Benteke is a better goal scorer that is kind of the point. Vertout may be better at these things than Westwood but until he does better than him in the PL we don't know. I've answered it many times, it's not relevant here because you can't prove that Gradel is a better goalscorer than Benteke based on stats. All you can prove is that Gradel scored more goals last season but seeing as Benteke has scored more goals over his career, the latter is obviously better. You've made a flawed comparison here. I agree that we don't know that Veretout can do those things better yet but the argument I'm making is that he should be in the team ahead of Westwood because he has done those things in a league that is not entirely dissimilar to the league we are playing in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntrimBlack Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I would have thought Westwood's position will be under threat from Sanchez rather than Veretout. I also suspect that Veretout will become a regular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I was one of those that said I didn't rate Westwood that highly. But to be fair he has been decent so far. Nothing amazing but deserves a place in the team. He seems to be enjoying playing alongside Gana it seems. Who wouldn't? That guy is a machine. True but if Gana was Robocop. Richards would be Ed209! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted August 31, 2015 Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2015 Obviously I can't prove Gadel is better, neither do I think he is that is the point. Anyway I'll leave it there. As for Westwood I fully expect him to remain a regular starter under Sherwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Veretout looked way way off the pace in his first few games. If we are basing our opinion on last season then yes,it would seem he is a better player than Westwood. But until he is ready for this league it's irrelevant. Also why does it always have to be one or the other. It's squad game, I would like to see all midfielders fighting for their position. They will all get their chance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Having players to the standard of veretout/Westwood/Sanchez/gana all fighting for places in the midfield is fantastic for the club as all will have to up their game to stay there and if we get injuries, we have great options on the bench. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I've said it already but Westwood and Veretout don't even play the same position. To play Veretout in Westwood's positon would be a complete waste of Veretout's talents and silly because Westwood is more than capable himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Having players to the standard of veretout/Westwood/Sanchez/gana all fighting for places in the midfield is fantastic for the club as all will have to up their game to stay there and if we get injuries, we have great options on the bench. Yep and it would be nice to have the option of playing particular players suites to the game plan we're trying to implement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I've said it already but Westwood and Veretout don't even play the same position. To play Veretout in Westwood's positon would be a complete waste of Veretout's talents and silly because Westwood is more than capable himself. But Westwood doesn't play in the position he used to anymore anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 In the long run, when Veretout gets up to speed and more used to the league, I think Westwood will go back to being our 'holding' midfielder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Just on the subject of whether Lique 1 is comparable to the Premier League in style, haven't all 4 of our signings from there commented on how much quicker the pace is and how intense it is? and we've seen that the players further forward (Ayew and Veretout) have both struggled to get up to speed so far because of it. The difference between the leagues is directly affecting their ability to score and assist. Whether Veretout does adapt or not, and I think he will, on the evidence in THIS league so far there's not much to suggest he's way more effective than Westwood in that role. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nazvfc Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Worked hard. Right, him him a new contract. Him him a new contract? If you meant 'offer him' then we already did this summer and I'm glad we did Yeah actually shows some post for affect and don't think before they post (like me sometimes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post PompeyVillan Posted August 31, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted August 31, 2015 R Bear, congratulations on polarising a debate. It's a great way to ruin a good thread. You can put me down as a Westwood apologist, because I disagree with you. I respect your right to an opinion and the right to voice it, but I don't respect your opinion. Because you don't qualify it, you dismiss an argument backed up by stats out if hand and label those who disagree as 'apologists'. There is a strong argument based on statistics that Westwood is a pretty useful player (posted within the last week, sorry I can't specially find what I am looking for). Please, give a detailed breakdown of why you believe these are not relevant. He moves the ball forward to players in attacking positions consistently, he is good at controlling possession, works very hard and makes a telling defensive contribution. 'He's not very good because he doesn't score.' He doesn't score many, but let's think about why? The only player who has scored for us in the last few years is Benteke. Is that a poor reflection on Westwood? I don't think so. He hasn't been in the position to score many goals for us because he's not been playing in a way or in a system designed to create chances for him. He's usually been playing as a deep lying midfielder, whose job is to retain possession, distribute the ball to the forwards and destroy opposing attacks. We've been hopeless for years. Especially in midfield. Westwood hasn't shone, but he's shown potential and improvement. I notice the mocking mention of Xavi. He clearly isn't in his league. But he is still a good player. Probably not a top 6 player, but still good enough for us, an aspiring top 10 team. He's not perfect, but I think he is still developing. He's starting to hit his best and I think he'll make a telling impact impact further forward. I would like to see him played there more often. If he's hitting the ball to Traore (as per Crystal Palace) and Grealish rather than Weimann and Agbonlahor, I suspect his contribution will be a little more noticeable. He almost scored against Sunderland, an encouraging sign after one game played further forward. I certainly think that Westwood is a player for idealists, rather than pragmatists. Put it this way, Pulis wouldn't play him if he were Villa manager, but Guardiola would. Oh wait, he's not as good as Xavi though. ;-) But anyway, Sherwood seems to be a Westwood apologist too, so that's good enough for me. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 You see for me, this is still polarising just in a less aggressive way. I'm definitely not sold on Westwood but I don't think he's a bad player either. However, I think he's about coming to the end of his usefulness and I certainly don't think he's even 'aspiring top 10'. He's also never really made a 'telling defensive contribution'. If we take the most recent game as an example, where he had a freer attacking role - he struggled to make any sort of impact or impression on the game. His former role of sitting a little deeper is now redundant as we've split that role between Sanchez and Gueye (who are both far better defensively than him) so the onus was on him to influence the game in an attacking sense. He was largely anonymous throughout the game and when Gil came on, he may as well not have existed as he was basically a spectator. Gil can pass just as well as he can, he's more athletic, he is much more technically proficient and thus offered us a real attacking threat. In the formation and style we're looking to play, he's just not necessary at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gharperr Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) Youre assuming the formation/style were looking to play has sanchez in it though. When everyone is back fit grealish/gil/adama might push sanchez out and westwood slot back in...like before. The reason why westwood might be playing further might be down to the lack of personal who can do it correctly at the moment rather than sanchez/gana pushing him forward. We dont really know what formation were lookin to play at the moment given a lot of the starting (assumed starters) midfield players have been unfit/not ready Edited September 1, 2015 by gharperr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 That's true and it's subject to change based on who we're playing (you'd hope it would be, anyway) - so Westwood could slot back in. Based on performances though, I think Sanchez is a much more effective player to have as our deeper midfielder and this formation would have come up trumps against Sunderland, if Grealish or Traore had been playing instead of Bacuna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 He's also never really made a 'telling defensive contribution'. Apart from preventing a certain goal against palace. he struggled to make any sort of impact or impression on the game Apart from the key forward passes and our best chance to win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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