Liverpool

[sheepyvillian]

4 hours ago, Zatman said:

Funniest part is he has been one of the worst performers when ever I see Liverpool play. Strolling about with an arrogance like he he is Beckenbauer

He isn't even Rijkarrd, never mind Beckenbauer. He would struggle to get in the top 20 of best Dutch centre  - halves. 

[Keyblade]

2 hours ago, villa4europe said:

it is but I'm going to go back there....

1 PL, 1 FA Cup, 2 League cups, 1 CL in 9 seasons, he they / have underachieved 

he'll be put up there with fergie, wenger, pep and jose but doesn't have the trophy cabinet to match

He's had to contend with a cheating, Man City who have been sweeping up the trophies here. How can anybody else win the league here? They've finished a season with 90+ points 3 times and only won the title once. Drop them in Fergie's era and they're winning the league every season. Hell, they just need 5 more points this season to win the league in the hallowed treble season

[villa4europe]

14 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

He's had to contend with a cheating, Man City who have been sweeping up the trophies here. How can anybody else win the league here? They've finished a season with 90+ points 3 times and only won the title once. Drop them in Fergie's era and they're winning the league every season. Hell, they just need 5 more points this season to win the league in the hallowed treble season

don't disagree about cheating city

but in that same time period man utd have 2 league cups, arsenal have 2 fa cups, Leicester have an FA cup and a PL title

in the last 9 seasons chelsea have 1 PL, 1 FA cup, 1 CL and 1 EL - they've also lost 7 finals in that time

while we are told that klopp is a world class manager and one of the all time greats in English football, VVD is the best PL CB ever, TAA is world class, Salah is world class, Alisson is the best keeper in the league - and to be fair to them they are a very good team, at times over his tenure they've been outright brilliant - but the trophy haul simply doesn't reflect that, 9 years would put him at 36 trophies available, they won 5 so 14%

and they've not been knocked out of these cup competitions by man city, they've lost to Southampton, Leicester, us, wolves (x2) west ham, west brom

[Keyblade]

23 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

don't disagree about cheating city

but in that same time period man utd have 2 league cups, arsenal have 2 fa cups, Leicester have an FA cup and a PL title

in the last 9 seasons chelsea have 1 PL, 1 FA cup, 1 CL and 1 EL - they've also lost 7 finals in that time

while we are told that klopp is a world class manager and one of the all time greats in English football, VVD is the best PL CB ever, TAA is world class, Salah is world class, Alisson is the best keeper in the league - and to be fair to them they are a very good team, at times over his tenure they've been outright brilliant - but the trophy haul simply doesn't reflect that, 9 years would put him at 36 trophies available, they won 5 so 14%

and they've not been knocked out of these cup competitions by man city, they've lost to Southampton, Leicester, us, wolves (x2) west ham, west brom

Cup competitions are a crapshoot relatively speaking. Even saying that, they've been to 3 CL finals, which even City can't boast. I'd prefer to measure a team's greatness on league performance. If you take City out of the equation, they'd have had 3 of the 5 best seasons in PL history.

Also, I know we take the piss out of them for winning the Net Spend Table, but they really have spent comparatively little. Previous great teams like United, Chelsea etc simply spent the most. Klopp has done well elevating players like Salah and Mane to world class levels. I'm hesitant to add VVD to that given that he was £70m, but he wasn't anywhere near world class at Southampton, plus we've seen how big signings like that could go south *cough*Maguire*cough*.

[Zatman]

25 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

He's had to contend with a cheating, Man City who have been sweeping up the trophies here. How can anybody else win the league here? They've finished a season with 90+ points 3 times and only won the title once. Drop them in Fergie's era and they're winning the league every season. Hell, they just need 5 more points this season to win the league in the hallowed treble season

City won just 2 FA Cup finals since Klopp came in. He got to one final in that time

His lack of silverware is a big mark against his reign

[Avfc96]

He's massively underachieved in terms of silverware.

He's also finished behind United 4 times since he took over despite United being an absolute basket case of a club for the majority of the past 10 years since Fergie left.

[rodders0223]

7 minutes ago, Avfc96 said:

He's massively underachieved in terms of silverware.

He's also finished behind United 4 times since he took over despite United being an absolute basket case of a club for the majority of the past 10 years since Fergie left.

*despite having half their net spend and probably much less.

 

Are we really trying to rewrite Klopp's tenure already?

The man's a Liverpool legend. Was any odd here when they were managed by Hogdson ..

[Keyblade]

Spending since Klopp came in:

Gross:

Net:

You would hope Man United could sneak a couple of league finishes above Liverpool (such as the injury derailed season where Cardiff City bench warmer Nat Phillips made 20 starts for Liverpool), given how much they've spent.

Ironically, it's a feather in the cap of Klopp that people are expecting Pep/City-esque dominance from him otherwise he's deemed a failure, when by right they shouldn't even be up there. And they never were anywhere near up there for the ~30 years preceding him, and likely won't be for many gears after him. But he's the failure, somehow.

[LondonLax]

I have a long enough memory to remember what a basket case Liverpool were before Klopp.

They will quickly revert back there once he leaves. 

Hilarious how many people have such difficulty separating their emotions about a rival manager from their analysis of his record. 

[Keyblade]

13 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I have a long enough memory to remember what a basket case Liverpool were before Klopp.

They will quickly revert back there once he leaves. 

Hilarious how many people have such difficulty separating their emotions about a rival manager from their analysis of his record. 

He'll be remembered by Liverpool fans in the same way Paisley and Dalglish are but let Villa fans tell it and you'd think he was Souness or something.

[Zatman]

6 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

He'll be remembered by Liverpool fans in the same way Paisley and Dalglish are but let Villa fans tell it and you'd think he was Souness or something.

More Rafa Benitez than Souness. For the team they had its a poor trophy haul

The cult of Klopp is an incredible thing

[Davkaus]

1 minute ago, Zatman said:

More Rafa Benitez than Souness. For the team they had its a poor trophy haul

The cult of Klopp is an incredible thing

You've got to take the above numbers into it though, while they'd wish for more trophies, they've punched above their financial weight, and if it wasn't for the biggest cheats in British footballing history, they'd have had a period of absolute dominance.

[Zatman]

26 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I have a long enough memory to remember what a basket case Liverpool were before Klopp.

They will quickly revert back there once he leaves. 

Hilarious how many people have such difficulty separating their emotions about a rival manager from their analysis of his record. 

Finished 2nd two times in the previous 6 seasons before he took over. 16 months before he got the job they were a slip from a moron away from winning the title

[Zatman]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

You've got to take the above numbers into it though, while they'd wish for more trophies, they've punched above their financial weight, and if it wasn't for the biggest cheats in British footballing history, they'd have had a period of absolute dominance.

But they wouldnt. They actually only finished 2nd to City twice, same amount as United did

Klopp broke the world transfer record for both goalkeeper and defender. They spent money as well

[Keyblade]

7 minutes ago, Zatman said:

More Rafa Benitez than Souness. For the team they had its a poor trophy haul

The cult of Klopp is an incredible thing

What do you mean for the team they had, as if they went and bought the best players out there? They've been outspent by 5 other teams. Were they the 6th best team of the past decade? You are inadvertently making the argument that Klopp made that team so good.

It's like in 10 years time people saying Villa should have won more trophies, or finished in the top 4 more under Emery with the team they had, when in reality we only really look this good precisely because of Emery and his coaching, not because we have the best players. We really have no right to be as good as we are if not for our manager's genius.

[Davkaus]

6 minutes ago, Zatman said:

But they wouldnt. They actually only finished 2nd to City twice, same amount as United did

Klopp broke the world transfer record for both goalkeeper and defender. They spent money as well

Ok dominance is overdoing it, but they've spent less than Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and Man United and won about the same as the lot of them combined in that time. So they've done better than most teams who've spent more, with Man City being the sole exception.

Of course "they spent money as well", it's the premier league, but it's just arguing that black is white to deny that Klopp has done very well there for the money they've spent.

[Rds1983]

If Emery has won 5 trophies over 9 years here I'd be ecstatic. 

Klopp has got Liverpool their:

- first title in 30 year's. 

- first FA Cup since 2005.

- two league cups.

- first Champions League since 2005 

Plus a super cup, club world cup and charity shield. 

In the 10 years before he joined in 2015, they had 1 League Cup.

Even without the 90+ points seasons and City being unique, he has clearly been a success for them.

[Davkaus]

I'd also put a big asterisk next to the Man City spending to qualify "amount they claim to have spent in their fraudulent accounts"

[Zatman]

5 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

What do you mean for the team they had, as if they went and bought the best players out there? They've been outspent by 5 other teams. Were they the 6th best team of the past decade? You are inadvertently making the argument that Klopp made that team so good.

It's like in 10 years time people saying Villa should have won more trophies, or finished in the top 4 more under Emery with the team they had, when in reality we only really look this good precisely because of Emery and his coaching, not because we have the best players. We really have no right to be as good as we are if not for our manager's genius.

Alisson - world record transfer fee at time and top keeper

TAA - one of best technical players in world

Robertson was a top full back 

Van Dijk most expensive defender in the world at the time. Some idiots have even declared him best defender in Premier League history

Salah/Mane/Firmino nothing needs be said

Coutinho/Thiago/Milner/Fabinho/Matip/Jota all good players

Then big signings like Nunez and Keita which were duds

[Zatman]

5 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Ok dominance is overdoing it, but they've spent less than Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and Man United and won about the same as the lot of them combined in that time. So they've done better than most teams who've spent more, with Man City being the sole exception.

Of course "they spent money as well", it's the premier league, but it's just arguing that black is white to deny that Klopp has done very well there for the money they've spent.

He has done ok though. Nobody saying is shit but his achievements being blown overboard mainly led by this weird cult that he is a good guy and we all wanted him to win a quadruple

Liverpool had a brilliant squad and picked up little silverware. For all City dominance, they won 12 trophies in the Klopp era that Liverpool could have won. City werent smashing trebles every season