Scottish Independence

[kidlewis]

there are a load of issues.

for a start they can have independence if they can pay for us to move our nuclear deterrants out of the country.

also there has been huge investment in renewable energy in scotland for the whole country. What happens with that?

also I presume full independence means they receive no money whatsoever from the England and welsh parliament.

They will get the oil in the North Sea though which I doubt the PM at that time will be happy about.

There are so many infastructure issues they would need to sort.

HS2 for example. Do we just build that up to Newcastle and say "well if you want it you can pay for it".

Polls suggest at the moment around two thirds of scots are happy anyway.

Also could Scotland finance their own NHS considering the issues they have up there with alcohol and diet?

maybe if they get that oil they will be fine. Doubt they will be able to be competitive in terms of taxes though unless you manufacture alcohol, cigarettes or fast food.

[Eames]

It's not like the conservatives will lose many votes if Scotland goes it alone so Cameron can't lose either way really

If they got independence the question would be who will invade them first for the oil us or America ....

So the point is not what is good for the country but what is good for the Tory party?

It's a totally ludicrous idea and when I see English people saying ahh "let them go" it shows a complete ignorance as to what the impact would be, IMO. Where would it stop by the way, would Wales then no longer be part of the UK? What about Cornwall and Yorkshire, both have (albeit very small at the moment) groups who would like "independence" from Westminster.

Maybe a more crucial thing this is showing is the continued bias towards London for central funds is a key thing that the majority of the UK actually have a problem with. Going back to Tony's point though of course with a heartland of core support (as we are seeing with the train debate and Tarquin this and Quentin that objecting to the impact on the local hunt) it's in Cameron's interest to keep the SE bias pretty much in place and if possible to grow stronger.

Conservative and Unionist Party :-)

And your objections of course have NOTHING to do with the fact that without Scottish MPs, Labour would never win another GE. :wink:

[kidlewis]

Also an interesting thing will be the rather laborious EU figures we need to achieve.

If our NHS split would we suddenly have fantastic figures on reducing obesity and alcohol related illnesses?

would we be down on our emissions targets and renewable energy targets?

military action (which fully independent would be seperate, only devo max includes shared responsibility for key areas like this).

does that mean any MOD land and infastructure up there needs to be funded to move or effectively sold to the scottish parliament?

[drat01]

And your objections of course have NOTHING to do with the fact that without Scottish MPs, Labour would never win another GE. Winking

You should go on the stage with that mind-reading act. You wouldn't earn much though as you are pretty crap at it by the looks of it.

I suppose I could say that you are happy with it because with the boundary changes and the SE home counties bias the Tory party would cling on to power (probably need the Lib Dems to bail them out again)?

[drat01]

Also an interesting thing will be the rather laborious EU figures we need to achieve.

If our NHS split would we suddenly have fantastic figures on reducing obesity and alcohol related illnesses?

would we be down on our emissions targets and renewable energy targets?

military action (which fully independent would be seperate, only devo max includes shared responsibility for key areas like this).

does that mean any MOD land and infastructure up there needs to be funded to move or effectively sold to the scottish parliament?

There are a million and one things that would need to be considered, a lot more important than the health stats. There would be no certainty that admission into things like the EU would be a given for either an independent Scotland or what is then left of the UK, so elements of major changes in budgets, immigration, shared resources / infrastructure etc would need to be considered. Some people say "let them have the oil", which is again not understanding what would happen. There would be massive legal challenges from numerous parties to the validity and legality of ownership of this resource. There would be billions needed to be spent on independence and how it would need to work, especially if both were to run as truly independent countries.

It's a fanciful idea and as was said before countries do not really exist as such its now down to large corporations as to how the world runs.

[islingtonclaret]

Cameron has looked like a right plonker for trying to interfere with this and has played right into the SNPs hands.

I say, give them want they want so the English can no longer "be the baddies". You want independance? Have it.

Of course, I think it's a bad, bad idea for them and not great for us either.

[Awol]

It'd be **** hilarious if it happened, they'd become a third world country over night.

Presumably they'd want to join the Euro so they could be like Ireland, Iceland and the Netherlands (I think this were the three countries Salmon was harping on about in the past), anyone think joining the Euro right now would be a good idea?

Do they have to buy back the debt that they'd owe us for RBS?

How long has North Sea Oil got left? It isn't that long iirc (production down to a third of its peak by 2020)

It's also hilarious that Cameron has offered them independence early and Salmond is going no no, we need longer than that blah blah blah, because he knows right now that it would be economic suicide, he wants to wait until the conditions are better. Anyone notice a huge slice of wanting his cake and eating it?

Pretty much this, although it would be interesting to see who the Shetlands and Orkneys decided to attach themselves to. Major new oil fields have been located in their waters and if they decided to stick with the UK instead of a Scottish Republic then we'd get the oil revenues anyway!

Polls indicate only about 29% of Scots are in favour anyway, but Salmond appears to timing the referendum with the 700 year anniversary of Bannockburn in the hope of stoking the anti-English vote.

Mel Gibson would be proud of him.

[mjmooney]

How would it affect the price of whisky?

That's my only point of interest, really.

[GarethRDR]

I love Scotland. You know, I’ll take the high road, I’ll take the low road… I think both are valid.

[kidlewis]

Also an interesting thing will be the rather laborious EU figures we need to achieve.

If our NHS split would we suddenly have fantastic figures on reducing obesity and alcohol related illnesses?

would we be down on our emissions targets and renewable energy targets?

military action (which fully independent would be seperate, only devo max includes shared responsibility for key areas like this).

does that mean any MOD land and infastructure up there needs to be funded to move or effectively sold to the scottish parliament?

There are a million and one things that would need to be considered, a lot more important than the health stats. There would be no certainty that admission into things like the EU would be a given for either an independent Scotland or what is then left of the UK, so elements of major changes in budgets, immigration, shared resources / infrastructure etc would need to be considered. Some people say "let them have the oil", which is again not understanding what would happen. There would be massive legal challenges from numerous parties to the validity and legality of ownership of this resource. There would be billions needed to be spent on independence and how it would need to work, especially if both were to run as truly independent countries.

It's a fanciful idea and as was said before countries do not really exist as such its now down to large corporations as to how the world runs.

wow I actually agree with you Drat

it would cost an awful lot, but I am guessing Salmond wouldn't want any of that to come from their side.

Someone on 5 live mentioned that if they go independent they would have to join the EU or at least are "enrolled" into it, I am sure they could back out though.

Full independence is just that completely on their own. Devo max still involves shared responsibility on defence, utility infastructure and the like.

They must have done the maths and realised they could be better off independent, otherwise they are seriously damaging Scotland

[LondonLax]

It'd be **** hilarious if it happened, they'd become a third world country over night.

Presumably they'd want to join the Euro so they could be like Ireland, Iceland and the Netherlands (I think this were the three countries Salmon was harping on about in the past), anyone think joining the Euro right now would be a good idea?

Do they have to buy back the debt that they'd owe us for RBS?

How long has North Sea Oil got left? It isn't that long iirc (production down to a third of its peak by 2020)

It's also hilarious that Cameron has offered them independence early and Salmond is going no no, we need longer than that blah blah blah, because he knows right now that it would be economic suicide, he wants to wait until the conditions are better. Anyone notice a huge slice of wanting his cake and eating it?

Pretty much this, although it would be interesting to see who the Shetlands and Orkneys decided to attach themselves to. Major new oil fields have been located in their waters and if they decided to stick with the UK instead of a Scottish Republic then we'd get the oil revenues anyway!

Polls indicate only about 29% of Scots are in favour anyway, but Salmond appears to timing the referendum with the 700 year anniversary of Bannockburn in the hope of stoking the anti-English vote.

Mel Gibson would be proud of him.

I think the Bannockburn thing is a red herring.

He wants 2014 to give him time to mount a campaign, also the Glasgow Commonwealth games and the Golf Open at St Andrews are that are that year so their will be a lot of St Andrews cross waving going on in the lead up to a vote.

Also, the full impact of the Tory cuts will have taken force up there and there will be greater appetite to break away. Especially given the fact that Scotland contributed more to the UK tax revenue then they received back last year so they will make an economic case as well.

The Shetlands and Orkenys are Scottish islands so they would keep the new oil reserves that have been discovered up there.

I think they would be fine.

[Brumerican]

If they got independence the question would be who will invade them first for the oil us or America ....

It won't be us because if the Jocks go we'll only have a tiny army and practically no special forces.

[snowychap]

I imagine there are all sorts of arguments on both sides about whether it may or may not be a good idea for Scotland and the rest of the UK.

I also imagine that there are would be all sorts of considerations regarding practicalities (even more than already mentioned in the thread).

It should be for the Scottish people to decide on independence and, regardless of the reserved nature of the constitution in the relevant act, it seems both wrong and a bad idea in the long run for the Westminster government to attempt to dictate the timing and the terms of the question(s) put.

[Chindie]

I would rather Scotland stayed in the union.

I don't think the Bannockburn stuff is a red herring, it's no more of a red herring than the other flag waving things going on around that time, though I do believe that the time he wants is more about preparing a campaign and waiting for both the problems from Westminster to bite and the current financial crisis to wain a little.

I suspect Scotland would be better off staying in the union, and it's not a surprise to me that Salmond already is/has been banging the drum of Westminster 'tyranny' already. It's a shame that Cameron has decided the best thing he can do is give him more of a beat to play to by trying to force an earlier referendum.

Saying all that, I think Salmond knows well that he has a lot of work to do to win that referendum. I don't think theres the popular support for a split that many would like to make out, and baring a serious change in the meantime I think he'll lose a campaign.

Also, wasn't there talk that if Scotland split the remaining UK would have a credible claim for their oil? I can't remember the details exactly.

[mjmooney]

I thought the oil had virtually run out anyway?

It would be ironic (and stupid) if Scotland went fully independent, the oil ran out, and we discovered some more just off Hull.

[kidlewis]

I thought the oil had virtually run out anyway?

It would be ironic (and stupid) if Scotland went fully independent, the oil ran out, and we discovered some more just off Hull.

some expert was on 5 live saying it would be better for Scotland as they would have much more resource and we would be left with a big of gas.

however he said that it could be argued that as we were in a union they strategically used up fields closer and easily accessible first. which in a court you could perhaps argue that it should still be shared as the dividing of countries happened after the process of mining began.

If you divorce it's shared amongst equally unless there is a prenup.

if Scotland divorces England, just because the uk decided on mining the UK based produce first doesnt necessarily mean Scotland can keep all theirs, considering they have benefitted from "our" resources first as well.

[kidlewis]

it would be interesting to see how much the UK invest in Scotland and whether after a break up that Westminster could announce a drop in income tax as a result of not funding Scotland anymore.

that's one way of exiting a recession.

We don't have to fund scotland anymore so as a result VAT is down to 17.5% again and fuel duty is down 5p a litre.

welcome to the BOOM!

[dundeevilla]

Polls indicate only about 29% of Scots are in favour anyway, but Salmond appears to timing the referendum with the 700 year anniversary of Bannockburn in the hope of stoking the anti-English vote.

The Bannockburn tie-in is an invention of the media.

It's not true that the SNP will try and hitch the referendum up to some kind of spike in anti-English sentiment around this anniversary. Most Scots wouldn't have a clue what happened in 1314 anyway.

This is about what's best for Scotland in the long-run, nothing to do with anti-Englishness. Do we want to determine our own future, or are we happy to remain part of the union?

I look forward to the debate, after which I will make up my mind one way or another and cast my vote.

It's just a shame the press don't have the maturity to debate the issues properly, and instead come out with the kind of tripe above.

[The_Rev]

A thing relating to how good it is for party politics and how good it is for the country, I question the motives of Alex Salmond too. I suspect this is more about him wanting to be king for a day than anything else. Like I said earlier, I like the union and I believe there is strength in unity. More devolution is a good thing, but on matters of economics and foreign policy we are better off sticking together.

The point about this sparking off a chain reaction in places like Wales, Catalonia, the Basque country, Cornwall, the commonwealth, Yorkshire (lol) and others is interesting too. It might mean that we are beginning to subscribe to the methods of the Western Baltic countries that used to be part of Yugoslavia. In about 50 years they wont even be able to put a football team out down there because they are all so busy declaring independence from each other. Before long that region will be made up of twenty million separate countries each with a population of one.

[LondonLax]

it would be interesting to see how much the UK invest in Scotland and whether after a break up that Westminster could announce a drop in income tax as a result of not funding Scotland anymore.

that's one way of exiting a recession.

We don't have to fund scotland anymore so as a result VAT is down to 17.5% again and fuel duty is down 5p a litre.

welcome to the BOOM!

Scotland contributed 9.4% of the UK's tax take last year and only took back 9.3%.

Scotland is funding the UK!