Scottish Independence

[TrentVilla]

I think the anti Scottish stuff amongst English people is in direct response to the anti English attitude of some (far from all) Scotts. I'm half English half Scottish and I spend plenty of time north of the border and I've experienced plenty of anti English sentiments from people until they realise I'm with Scottish relatives.

There is a resentment in some Scotts of the English and its reflected in some English peoples views of the Scots, its sad but its completely understandable from both sides in my view.

[PompeyVillan]

I was thinking of starting a thread about referendums (referenda if you prefer), or putting something in the bollitics thread, but this seems a good a place as any.

In a nutshell, I'm mostly agin 'em. The received wisdom would seem to be "We can leave the minor stuff to Westminster, but if it's something important, we should put it to a referendum".

My opinion is exactly the opposite. If it's something emotive, but effectively trivial - (say) changing the flag, or the national anthem - by all means consult the great unwashed. But something as complex as joining/leaving the EU, changing the currency, etc., should in my opinion be left to the professionals. Christ, I'm fairly well educated and I take a reasonable interest in these things, but it's WAY too big a subject for me (or the vast majority of the public) to grasp well enough to make that sort of decision. It would be a massive cop-out by the people we pay to manage the country and its economy, and would probably be decided by emotion, stoked up by the tabloid press. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

If a party has a stance on such an issue, they should make part of their manifesto. If they get voted in, they can just get on with it, whether we like it or not - they already have a mandate.

Edited for typos.

I agree with you to some extent. But at the same time, if it gauged that a strong majority of the Scottish people want independence, when what's stopping them?

I'd personally like to keep the union, as I think culturally we'd be less if we considered ourselves different.

[bickster]

Must admit I've never experienced any anti-English sentiment in Scotland, whenever I've worked up there (and that was as recently as a few months ago in Glasgow - with mainly Celtic fans), I get the impression that some of it is just good natured banter and at other times if people are being shall we say a bit nobby, the English thing may get thrown at them but generally speaking (Yes I realise the irony of that) the Scots that I've met wherever and of whatever persuasion have been a friendly bunch. I suppose it helps that I have a Welsh name but I think a lot of it like anywhere else in the world, is just down to personality and the way people act.

On a less serious note... If they do gain independence can we please give them Blackpool as a kind of foreign enclave. Oh and anything North of the Tyne and East of the Pennines ;-)

[tonyh29]

Throw in Yorkshire and your plan gets my vote

[Bazdavies79]

Lucky bastards.

As you're being so generous can you hand Wales back to the Welsh as well?

[The_Rev]

**** that. Most of our drinking water is piped in from Wales!

[bickster]

Throw in Yorkshire and your plan gets my vote

And a small part of Derbyshire not far from Sheffield?

[PauloBarnesi]

I think the anti Scottish stuff amongst English people is in direct response to the anti English attitude of some (far from all) Scotts. I'm half English half Scottish and I spend plenty of time north of the border and I've experienced plenty of anti English sentiments from people until they realise I'm with Scottish relatives.

There is a resentment in some Scotts of the English and its reflected in some English peoples views of the Scots, its sad but its completely understandable from both sides in my view.

If you read John Preeble’s Culloden you can understand a bit of the bitterness. But I am not sure who started it; the English or the Scots.

Truth be told Scotland has contributed more to Britain and probably the world, then any other part of the union or a country of such a size.

[dAVe80]

An interesting thing I've noticed on all the newspaper message boards (and to a certain extent on here) is the level of anti-Scottish sentiment this has brought bubbling to the surface this week. A lot of name calling and abuse from our southern cousins.

Indeed. I ve never understood the problem some English people have with the Scots (and vice versa).

It's because we're family. We love each other really! I call my brother things, I wouldn't say to my worst enemy, but if I heard someone else saying things like that about him, I'd kill them!

[tonyh29]

Throw in Yorkshire and your plan gets my vote

And a small part of Derbyshire not far from Sheffield?

doubt the Scots will take it but maybe we can sneak it in under the small print

[mjmooney]

An interesting thing I've noticed on all the newspaper message boards (and to a certain extent on here) is the level of anti-Scottish sentiment this has brought bubbling to the surface this week. A lot of name calling and abuse from our southern cousins.

Indeed. I ve never understood the problem some English people have with the Scots (and vice versa).

It's because we're family. We love each other really! I call my brother things, I wouldn't say to my worst enemy, but if I heard someone else saying things like that about him, I'd kill them!

You know, I think there's something in that.

Especially if you read memoirs of guys from small-unit British military units in WWII (e.g. a rifle section or a bomber crew) - they were so often the stereotyped Cockney+Brummie+Jock+Taff+Paddy+Scouse, etc. combo. And boy, did they stick together.

Mind you, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8.

[The_Rev]

[bickster]

Nobody's faced up to the real divorce question.

The Oil's running out...

We already own RBS...

Andy Murray must be worth half their GDP ;-)

Who get's him? And does that change if he wins a slam?

[troon_villan]

An interesting thing I've noticed on all the newspaper message boards (and to a certain extent on here) is the level of anti-Scottish sentiment this has brought bubbling to the surface this week. A lot of name calling and abuse from our southern cousins.

Indeed. I ve never understood the problem some English people have with the Scots (and vice versa).

It's because we're family. We love each other really! I call my brother things, I wouldn't say to my worst enemy, but if I heard someone else saying things like that about him, I'd kill them!

I echo this, nicely put!

Stopping the Old Firm bigots takes precedence over English v Scottish banter in my opinion. Salmond should focus on that.

[chrisp65]

If it's what they want then nobody should be allowed to stop them.

I don't think it's what they want mind.

Timing is against the SNP. He has to convince people that there is a good solution to currency, but as far as I can see there are three options:

1) join the euro, yeah that'll be a good idea

2) keep the quid, oooh very independent, can't print your own quids though

3) invent new currency and hope the markets like it, what could possibly go wrong?

People will happily embrace the theory, but in an actual vote they will wonder in which future they are better off. At present, that's probs as part of the UK. There are not 51% of Scots that would be happy risking being financially worse off so they can have the abstract benefit of independence.

Interersting that the SNP want 16 and 17 year olds included in the vote. I suspect that's because they've identified them as being more idealistic and less pragmatic or world wise.

[bickster]

2) keep the quid, oooh very independent, can't print your own quids though

They already do print their own quids, three different sets of their own quids, Bos, RBS and Clydesdale

Interersting that the SNP want 16 and 17 year olds included in the vote. I suspect that's because they've identified them as being more idealistic and less pragmatic or world wise.

Personally I think all 16-17 years should get the vote UK wide but thats a different topic altogether

[tonyh29]

Truth be told Scotland has contributed more to Britain and probably the world, then any other part of the union or a country of such a size.

Meh even their best ever group didn't contain one Scotsman ...

[TrentVilla]

I think the anti Scottish stuff amongst English people is in direct response to the anti English attitude of some (far from all) Scotts. I'm half English half Scottish and I spend plenty of time north of the border and I've experienced plenty of anti English sentiments from people until they realise I'm with Scottish relatives.

There is a resentment in some Scotts of the English and its reflected in some English peoples views of the Scots, its sad but its completely understandable from both sides in my view.

If you read John Preeble’s Culloden you can understand a bit of the bitterness. But I am not sure who started it; the English or the Scots.

Truth be told Scotland has contributed more to Britain and probably the world, then any other part of the union or a country of such a size.

I've not read it but I will if that is a recommendation. As for the bitterness I can understand it but at the same time I find it a tad childish at times.

You certainly can't fault their contribution to Britain, I mean they gave us battered mars bars and iron bru amongst other things.

[chrisp65]

2) keep the quid, oooh very independent, can't print your own quids though

They already do print their own quids, three different sets of their own quids, Bos, RBS and Clydesdale

Interersting that the SNP want 16 and 17 year olds included in the vote. I suspect that's because they've identified them as being more idealistic and less pragmatic or world wise.

Personally I think all 16-17 years should get the vote UK wide but thats a different topic altogether

yes, they do print their own quids, but they are worth a pound and directly interchangable. What they have is UK money with their own picture on it. That becomes tricky if they are independent. We can't have a shared currency where two separate countries can decide whether to print more and more money. Once we are separate they would have to decide to keep adherence to the UK pound and thrive or die by its performance (and therefore their own fate is still utterly out of their hands). Or they keep the right to print money and influence exchange rates, by having their own currency. Once they have their own money (beyond just having their own pictures on UK money), they are at the mercy of the markets. Now that might turn them into Switzerland, or it might turn them into Hungary.

[mjmooney]

I think the anti Scottish stuff amongst English people is in direct response to the anti English attitude of some (far from all) Scotts. I'm half English half Scottish and I spend plenty of time north of the border and I've experienced plenty of anti English sentiments from people until they realise I'm with Scottish relatives.

There is a resentment in some Scotts of the English and its reflected in some English peoples views of the Scots, its sad but its completely understandable from both sides in my view.

If you read John Preeble’s Culloden you can understand a bit of the bitterness. But I am not sure who started it; the English or the Scots.

Truth be told Scotland has contributed more to Britain and probably the world, then any other part of the union or a country of such a size.

I've not read it but I will if that is a recommendation.

I second the recommendation, and add:

The Scots also produced many of the British Empire's greatest explorers, doctors, soldiers, scientists, inventers and engineers. Disproportionately so, in fact.