MapleVilla Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 7 minutes ago, KAZZAM said: The 2nd points deduction should be another minus 6 and another minus 4 for reoccurring rule braking. Or if successful on appeal the points are reduced.....if not they're doubled 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallisFrizz Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, The Fun Factory said: There is no way the season is actually going to finish in mid may. It will be in the law courts in the summer I am so glad we are absolutely nowhere near it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calcifer Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, Genie said: If Everton survive with the deduction then they’ll probably accept it and move on to next season with a clean slate. There is no deterrent then is there? Spend big and take a 6 point deduction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 9 minutes ago, calcifer said: There is no deterrent then is there? Spend big and take a 6 point deduction! £20m is not big anymore. It’s a backup player if that. In Everton’s case it sounds like it was interest on loans which were omitted so didn’t actually go on the playing budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 5 hours ago, villan95 said: They really need to set some proper rules for how many points you will be deducted because they just seem to make it up as they go along right now. Maybe something like 1 point per million over FFP? It's funny as I'm sure I'm read in the original statement in November that being found guilty of any breach of FFP is automatic -6 deduction. The issue here is Premier league seemingly used very flimsy reasons to took off a further four points and seems Everton had little issue arguing that and the independent panel agreeing. There certainly needs to be clarity. Everyone knows if you go into administration it's a deduction of -9 or -12 depending on which league you play in and no more questions asked. Forest will appeal whatever points deduction they get so we'll then have the farce of teams ending the season not knowing if they stay up or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 4 hours ago, theboyangel said: As for Everton, if they’re found guilty of the second breach then they should be docked a further 6 points, making them worse off than before - maybe they should’ve just asked to remain at 10 for both breaches? I wonder how Leicester, Southampton and Leeds feel about it? They should just get on with being promoted and then finish above Everton next season. Comical a Leicester squad with all of Tielemans, Maddison and Harvey Barnes being regular starters actually went down. Southampton finished 11 points off Everton in the end. The worst one years back was West Ham playing Tevez and Mascherano for most of their games even though third party ownership was clearly banned. 5m fine but no points deduction and they finished two points clear of Sheffield United who didn't play in the premier league again for 12 years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 4 hours ago, ender4 said: It'll be 6 points for the second breach, downgraded to 4 points on appeal. So basically 10 points deduction overall after both appeals are done and dusted. Are the losses bigger in the second charge then? Everton's main points in this are they are being penalised for building a new ground with all the additional cost. They also sold Richarlison to Spurs when they were told to rather than keep him up to end of August 2022 to get some more wins and then a bigger fee. I'm actually not sure they'll get any points deducted from the second charge as that too would likely be a successful appeal. Think it will be suspended and the premier league will tell them to sell Onana or Branthwaite before the next deadline for FFP. Forest meanwhile have signed about 200 players since coming up (half of them actually not needed) and they were seemingly very brazen about not selling Brennan Johnson when they were required to so to meet FFP for last season so I think they'll get a hefty points deduction and might find it harder to appeal down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuwabatake Sanjuro Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, VillaChris said: Are the losses bigger in the second charge then? Everton's main points in this are they are being penalised for building a new ground with all the additional cost. They also sold Richarlison to Spurs when they were told to rather than keep him up to end of August 2022 to get some more wins and then a bigger fee. I'm actually not sure they'll get any points deducted from the second charge as that too would likely be a successful appeal. Think it will be suspended and the premier league will tell them to sell Onana or Branthwaite before the next deadline for FFP. Forest meanwhile have signed about 200 players since coming up (half of them actually not needed) and they were seemingly very brazen about not selling Brennan Johnson when they were required to so to meet FFP for last season so I think they'll get a hefty points deduction and might find it harder to appeal down. Hard to have sympathy if they knew they were still in ffp trouble that summer and still went out and paid big/moderately large sums for Onana, McNeil, Maupay and Garner along with big wages on Tarkowski, Gueye and Coady. Of course they may have gotten relegated had they not signed players but that's not an excuse to go out and break the rules. Nottingham Forest also should get no sympathy if they are in breach, their spending has been stupid. If Villa end up in breach too then it will be what we deserve for allowing Gerrard waste money/wages but hopefully we have enough business sense to just about avoid any sanctions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said: Hard to have sympathy if they knew they were still in ffp trouble that summer and still went out and paid big/moderately large sums for Onana, McNeil, Maupay and Garner along with big wages on Tarkowski, Gueye and Coady. Of course they may have gotten relegated had they not signed players but that's not an excuse to go out and break the rules. Nottingham Forest also should get no sympathy if they are in breach, their spending has been stupid. If Villa end up in breach too then it will be what we deserve for allowing Gerrard waste money/wages but hopefully we have enough business sense to just about avoid any sanctions. They sold Richarlison early that summer so guess they had the capital to make some of those signings. From what I remember McNeil looked a big fee but pretty sure initial payment to Burnley was only 3/4m and so very instalment based, probably same for Garner. Maupay was a bad signing all round and one they probably shouldn't have made. The premier league really should've stepped in earlier and actually stopped them making signings that summer if they knew FFP breaches were very likely. Generally the Football league rules are far more stringent. Pretty sure we were under a transfer embargo for most of summer 2018 before it got lifted when NSWE took over and thank f*** for that as I dread to think what our squad would've looked like by September 2018 if that takeover hadn't happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 14 hours ago, VillaChris said: Forest will appeal whatever points deduction they get so we'll then have the farce of teams ending the season not knowing if they stay up or not. I would assume both clubs will appeal their points deduction (I don't agree with you that Everton will not receive one, I think they will because the rules clearly state finances are judged on a rolling basis so the response to '2/3rds of it is what we received a deduction for before!' should really be 'yes, it is, so what?'). That appeal will have to be expedited very rapidly, because the Premier League has its annual meeting at which its new membership is ratified very shortly after the end of the season (it's pretty much immediately after the playoff final IIRC). The final decision absolutely has to be made before then. Whether it actually gets done before Gameweek 38 or not I'm less sure. Edited February 27 by HanoiVillan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesy7211 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 I don't think Everton will get a 2nd punishment at all. The 2nd punishment is for profit and sustainability rules broken over 75% of the period the first punishment covered. They'll claim double jeopardy, that they're being charged twice for the same offence, and get away with it. If it was us, I'd feel that it was unfair to punish us twice, so am quite sympathetic. The EFL do have precedent for this, and they don't charge clubs more than once for the same offence during the same period, so I think that'll be used by the PL. Forest won't be so lucky, and they'll get the 6 point deduction after the season ends. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldricks Cunning Plan Posted February 27 Visiting Supporter Share Posted February 27 57 minutes ago, Jonesy7211 said: I don't think Everton will get a 2nd punishment at all. The 2nd punishment is for profit and sustainability rules broken over 75% of the period the first punishment covered. They'll claim double jeopardy, that they're being charged twice for the same offence, and get away with it. If it was us, I'd feel that it was unfair to punish us twice, so am quite sympathetic. The EFL do have precedent for this, and they don't charge clubs more than once for the same offence during the same period, so I think that'll be used by the PL. Forest won't be so lucky, and they'll get the 6 point deduction after the season ends. But the rules are that they are three year periods, so the first breach is for 2019/20 2020/21 2021/22 as one period and 2020/21 2021/22 2022/23 as another period. Everton were charged for the initial period in March 2023 so if there were any doubts that they would fall foul of the rules again in the next period then surely it would have been prudent of them to not include any contentious elements of the losses (ie the unallowable loan interest) in their calculations? I don't know the breach for this period but if it was similar to the last one (£20m) then the sale of a Pickford/Branthwaite/Onana/McNeil/Calvert-Lewin would have averted the breach. They can't claim that they thought they were OK before so thought they didn't have to worry about it next time. All the other 18 clubs who have followed the rules will quite rightly be angry if they get away without a deduction for the 2nd breach. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesy7211 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, Baldricks Cunning Plan said: But the rules are that they are three year periods, so the first breach is for 2019/20 2020/21 2021/22 as one period and 2020/21 2021/22 2022/23 as another period. Everton were charged for the initial period in March 2023 so if there were any doubts that they would fall foul of the rules again in the next period then surely it would have been prudent of them to not include any contentious elements of the losses (ie the unallowable loan interest) in their calculations? I don't know the breach for this period but if it was similar to the last one (£20m) then the sale of a Pickford/Branthwaite/Onana/McNeil/Calvert-Lewin would have averted the breach. They can't claim that they thought they were OK before so thought they didn't have to worry about it next time. All the other 18 clubs who have followed the rules will quite rightly be angry if they get away without a deduction for the 2nd breach. I was just adding what was said last night in the news, that Everton's legal team are working on the angle that the 2 charges relate to an overlap for 75% of the same period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 43 minutes ago, Jonesy7211 said: I was just adding what was said last night in the news, that Everton's legal team are working on the angle that the 2 charges relate to an overlap for 75% of the same period. Yes, they'll doubtless try that argument, but it seems exceptionally weak. The stronger argument for Everton to take is that they alone are in the position of being able to be charged twice in one season because the rules were changed to force points deductions within the offending season at a time when they already had the historical case. Unless the rules change back again for some reason, nobody else will ever be charged twice in the same season. They could try that argument, and you could just about imagine the league taking pity on them and saying they can start next season on -6 instead. I don't think that'll happen, but I think it's a stronger argument than 'you know these rolling assessment periods we all knew about? well we think it's unfair now'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleVilla Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 I can see there being complications and uncertainty around the bottom few teams at the end of the season. "Are we relegated or playing in the premiership next season? Have we got to plan for parachute payments or can we spend x amount on that player we've been eyeing up?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 hours ago, MapleVilla said: I can see there being complications and uncertainty around the bottom few teams at the end of the season. "Are we relegated or playing in the premiership next season? Have we got to plan for parachute payments or can we spend x amount on that player we've been eyeing up?". Forest just need to get to over 40 points and they'll be fine as given Everton have appealed successfully they're not going to be deducted -10 anytime soon. So given they're already 5 points clear of Luton it would take a disaster of a run in for them to go down. Interesting how Luton react to this. They were getting some very good results in December-January but slipped back recently and now lost key players to injury. I still think they could win 3-4 more games this season though which would make Everton sweat on the second charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villatillidie95 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Henry Winter in The Times did an interesting write-up, approaching the issue from the other perspective. he was saying that it is correct that everyon got a 6 point penalty instead of 10 and that the PSR rules were breached due to interest rate rises, and that Everton are not responsible for UK Fiscal policy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 39 minutes ago, Villatillidie95 said: Henry Winter in The Times did an interesting write-up, approaching the issue from the other perspective. he was saying that it is correct that everyon got a 6 point penalty instead of 10 and that the PSR rules were breached due to interest rate rises, and that Everton are not responsible for UK Fiscal policy Henry Winter is an incredible fence sitter but because he sounds intelligent it feels his opinion might matter 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan95 Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 Not won a league game since December 16th 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 Has been reported that Dyche slapped a younger player on the back of the head during a meal on a mid season trip They are also apparently close to breaking a club record for games without a win. He must be close to the sack now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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